# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/242 "2021-11-12T23:19:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> I agree it’s not around here a widespread cultural attitude; but it’s my family’s attitude. Quite probably because we have members of multiple religious backgrounds, along with widely varying amounts of belief in them.
I’m not sure that we’re talking about quite the same thing - and I’m sure it’s my fault if we aren’t. I’m not talking about Jews ( or Muslims) who have a tree, etc. because they are married to a Christian, or they buy presents when they go to their brother’s house because the SIL is Christian. That happens all the time. I’m talking about Jews (or Muslims) who have trees or buy presents when there are _no_ Christians involved at all - because the spouse or SIL is a non-Christian who celebrates Christmas and grew up in a culture where being Buddhist or Taoist or practicing “Chinese folk religion” and celebrating Christmas is seen as no different than celebrating both the Lunar New Year and January 1.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/243 "2021-11-12T23:24:17Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> I’m not sure that we’re talking about quite the same thing
Ah. You’re right; I think that is a different phenomenon.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/244 "2021-11-12T23:28:29Z")
Halloween? Thanksgiving?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/245 "2021-11-12T23:32:43Z")
Expect? No. Even some Christians don’t celebrate it.
Understand why they wish to celebrate the secular aspects- sure.
I assume you take the holiday your employer provides?
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/246 "2021-11-12T23:37:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Halloween? Thanksgiving?
Halloween yes, but I don’t see how Thanksgiving has any religious origins. I grew up Catholic, and it was never a day where we would go to Mass. AFAIK none of the Protestants I grew up with had Church services either. Yes, there were celebrations around Thanksgiving held by various Church groups, but similar celebrations were held for July 4th, Cinco de Mayo, Diez y seis de Septiembre, and other patriotic holidays. The only church that people I know attend on Thanksgiving is the church of Jerry Jones, AKA sitting on the couch to watch the Dallas Cowboys football game.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/247 "2021-11-12T23:40:48Z")
I live in CA also.
I see generic angels, which can be of many faiths.
Mangers are limited to private areas, and are few. Secular decorations outnumber them at least 10-1.
Most songs on the radio are secular. I get a Little Drummer Boy and a Silent Night once in a while. “Favorite Things” which isn’t even a seasonal song is played more often.
Yes, this year ONE of the several season stamps is a Virgin Mary, it does seem to celebrate the art more than the Saint.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/248 "2021-11-12T23:44:34Z")
Who are you thanking? God. That is whom the pilgrims thanked, and were thanking.
_Prayers of thanks and special thanksgiving ceremonies are common among almost all religions after harvests and at other times.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-Hodg_1-1) The Thanksgiving holiday’s history in North America is rooted in English traditions dating from the Protestant [Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation). It also has aspects of a [harvest festival](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival), even though the harvest in [New England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England) occurs well before the late-November date on which the modern Thanksgiving holiday is celebrated.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-Hodg_1-1)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-2)_
_In the English tradition, days of thanksgiving and special thanksgiving religious services became important during the [English Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation) in the reign of [Henry VIII](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII) and in reaction to the large number of religious holidays on the Catholic calendar. Before 1536 there were 95 Church holidays, plus 52 Sundays, when people were required to attend church and forego work and sometimes pay for expensive celebrations. The 1536 reforms reduced the number of Church holidays to 27, but some [Puritans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan) wished to eliminate all Church holidays, including [Christmas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas) and [Easter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter). The holidays were to be replaced by specially called [Days of Fasting or Days of Thanksgiving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_humiliation_and_thanksgiving), in response to events that the Puritans viewed as acts of [special providence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_providence). Unexpected disasters or threats of judgement from on high called for Days of Fasting. Special blessings, viewed as coming from God, called for Days of Thanksgiving._
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/249 "2021-11-12T23:49:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Who are you thanking? God. That is whom the pilgrims thanked, and were thanking.
>
> _Prayers of thanks and special thanksgiving ceremonies are common among almost all religions after harvests and at other times.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-Hodg_1-1) The Thanksgiving holiday’s history in North America is rooted in English traditions dating from the Protestant [Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation). It also has aspects of a [harvest festival](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival), even though the harvest in [New England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England) occurs well before the late-November date on which the modern Thanksgiving holiday is celebrated.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-Hodg_1-1)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#cite_note-2)_
Maybe it’s a Protestant thing? I was not only raised Catholic, but also attended a Catholic elementary school. We were taught that while yes, we are thankful to God, that Thanksgiving is most definitely not a Catholic holiday (Halloween and New Year’s Day are different stories). There was, of course, a Mass on that day, but it wasn’t any different than the Mass held on any other ordinary weekday of the year.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/250 "2021-11-13T00:00:48Z")
You could consider it a generic thanking Divine Providence, non-denominational. That is how Abe meant it, it seems.
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/251 "2021-11-13T00:19:59Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> You’ve never seen A Charlie Brown Christmas?
I think I did, when I was at most 10 years old. That was a considerable time ago now.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/252 "2021-11-13T03:07:13Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> We were taught that while yes, we are thankful to God, that Thanksgiving is most definitely not a Catholic holiday
It’s not a _sectarian_ holiday—a holiday of a _particular_ religion.
Whether it’s a religious holiday, at least in origin, depends on what you mean by “religious.”
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/253 "2021-11-13T03:31:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Who are you thanking? God.
Not the god of any specific religion.
And not necessarily any god at all. Thanksgiving’s about being glad you’ve got food on the table and family and/or friends to share it with. It’s quite possible to be thankful to the family, to the friends, to the fields that grew the food, to the people who grew the food and moved the food and cooked the food, even to the turkey. Or the soybeans, as you choose.
Sure, it may be historically connected to religious thanksgivings of one or more specific religions. But that connection really is historical now.
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> It also has aspects of a [harvest festival](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival), even though the harvest in [New England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England) occurs well before the late-November date on which the modern Thanksgiving holiday is celebrated
Well, of course it does. You can’t celebrate a harvest festival in the middle of the harvest; you’re way too busy. You celebrate the harvest after it’s over.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/254 "2021-11-13T06:19:56Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> The law is very explicit.
Perhaps you’ll quote it, then? I’m saying people can disagree that what they are doing _breaks_ the law, not that people are disagreeing that there _is_ a law.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/255 "2021-11-13T12:10:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> So are you saying the Jews who _do_ celebrate Christmas are … converts? Apostates? Not _really_ Jewish?
I’m saying that to a certain degree, they’ve forgotten their history and lack awareness of their culture and heritage.
In my opinion, of course. Fortunately for me, I’m Jewish, so I get to have an opinion on other Jews and their practices.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/256 "2021-11-13T12:26:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Fortunately for me, I’m Jewish, so I get to have an opinion on other Jews and their practices.
_Everybody_ gets to have an opinion on Jews and their practices.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/257 "2021-11-13T14:21:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> _Everybody_ gets to have an opinion on Jews and their practices.
Really? Interesting.
Is it just Jews who are open for discussion? Or can I say, for instance, that Barak Obama isn’t really Africa-American? That “Redskins” shouldn’t be offensive to Native Americans? That trans women aren’t really women?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/258 "2021-11-13T15:45:04Z")
You can say _all_ of those things. The _consequences_ of voicing those opinions, of course, would vary. But you’d still get to _have_ them.
But you knew this. You could have meant something more like “Only other Jews’ opinions on Jews and their practices should _matter_ to Jews” or something similar. Which would strike me as extraordinarily naïve and historically blind given how much non-Jewish opinions have affected Jews, so I’m thinking there’s more complexity to it, and I’m hoping you’d clarify.
What is interesting to me that you then _seem_ to be equating having _any_ opinion on Jews and their practices with having only negative ones about other groups. Like daring to have _any_ opinion of Jewish practices is a negative thing in itself. Perhaps you’d clarify that, too.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/259 "2021-11-13T16:47:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> > [@MrDibble](#):
> >
> > So are you saying the Jews who _do_ celebrate Christmas are … converts? Apostates? Not _really_ Jewish?
>
> I’m saying that to a certain degree, they’ve forgotten their history and lack awareness of their culture and heritage.
I’m curious about this. Is there some prohibition in Judaism against participating in non-Jewish festivities or ceremonies? If so, is it specifically against religious ceremonies, or those of specific religions such as Christianity and Islam, or does it apply to non-Abrahamic religions as well? An answer would certainly help my understanding of the issue.
As a deist who was raised Catholic, I had no problem with, for example, attending a Mormon worship service (I had several Mormon friends growing up). The Catholics and Protestants that I personally know don’t have any problems with displaying a menorah for Hannukah, putting up decorations for Chinese New Year, joining in with some Muslim friends in celebrating the end of Ramadan, etc.
Admittedly, I don’t know personally know any Jewish people, so I’m not personally familiar with what they think about such matters.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/260 "2021-11-13T21:58:16Z")
Ok, but it’s been played on a Big 3 Network every year, for more than 50 years. Should they have a warning “Christmas hymn outside of Church”?
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/261 "2021-11-13T22:02:22Z")
I haven’t had a television since 1972. That may be the issue here. If you made a list of the popular culture items I am ignorant of you could walk to the moon on them. I’m not typical.
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