# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/302 "2021-11-15T18:31:38Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > One guy (fundy type) refused to do it This is part of what I was getting at. This was one Christian fundamentalist. Everyone else there participated. The Christians I know would probably have participated as well, at least most of them would have. It certainly wouldn’t seem like a big deal. I didn’t realize that this sort of thing was a bigger deal in Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/303 "2021-11-15T19:18:03Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I didn’t realize that this sort of thing was a bigger deal in Judaism. Without knowing the exact phrase they were asked to speak, it’s hard to say whether it would be a big deal for the Jews in attendance. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/304 "2021-11-15T19:25:57Z")
Ditto. But the polite thing to do would have been to mumble something if there was a word or two that would be a big deal for a Jew to say. Or just to skip going up altogether, as discretely as possible. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/305 "2021-11-15T19:27:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Or just to skip going up altogether, as discretely as possible. I think this was the thing…he skipped going up altogether, but he was not discreet about it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/306 "2021-11-15T19:33:29Z")
Without knowing the exact phrase ( and whether it was in English or another language), I don’t know if I as a Catholic would have said it.I would have gone up so as not to call attention to myself but the bow and saying the phrase would have depended on the specifics. And I really don’t understand how not participating in a different religion’s ritual is insulting or saying that the religion is bad , rather than just signifying my lack of belief. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/307 "2021-11-15T20:06:33Z")
I personally would have gone up and mumbled something appropriate if I wasn’t comfortable with the prescribed wording, or if it hadn’t been translated so I didn’t know what it meant (if it was really just “peace on your soul”, I don’t see a problem). I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to notice, let alone take offense, if I wasn’t clearly enunciating the prescribed phrase. I have been to one Buddhist funeral and don’t recall having any issues. If there was a statue of Buddha or something on the altar that one was expected to bow to, I can see that being a huge deal for traditional Jews. I agree that no disrespect need be inferred; IMO, my refusal to fully join in rites of other religions signifies that I take both their religion and my own too seriously to casually pretend to be something I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/308 "2021-11-15T20:35:11Z")
No cites on Jewish law, and few cites on anything "conclusively proved any sort of point ". I found the cite interesting and informative, as did you, apparently. I have read enough posts and discussed enough religion to know that one respected Rabbi’s opinion _never conclusively proved any sort of point_. Babale are you Observant? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/309 "2021-11-15T20:55:35Z")
I found the tone of your “Nope” comment came off as dismissive. Apologies if it was not intended that way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/310 "2021-11-15T21:31:45Z")
It was not. Sorry if it was taken that way. That Commandment is open to much interpretation, even among Christian scholars. It is not as simple as it sounds from what I read. I have little doubt that Talmudic scholars have debated it also. Or am I mistaken? This article seems to think so, but I am hardly an expert on Talmudic arguments-[The Elusive First Commandment - Jewish Telegraphic Agency](https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/the-elusive-first-commandment/) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/311 "2021-11-15T21:38:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > even among Christian scholars I’m going to suggest that Christian scholars have debated that a lot more than Jewish or Islamic scholars have. After all, Christians pray to saints, draw pictures of God, even make sculptures of God. Those are all things that Jews and (I believe) Muslims don’t do. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/312 "2021-11-15T21:47:43Z")
I certainly can’t disagree, although Talmudic debates are famous. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/313 "2021-11-15T21:55:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Babale are you Observant? No, I am not. I’m even married to a woman who isn’t Jewish. I’m just under no illusions about what Judaism says about that. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/314 "2021-11-15T21:57:12Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > Or just to skip going up altogether, as discretely as possible. > > I think this was the thing…he skipped going up altogether, but he was not discreet about it. Yeah, one really should be discreet about these things, especially at a funeral! Depending on the action or phrase, I may have declined but I wouldn’t have called attention to myself. I mean my wedding had communion and the Muslim part of my family didn’t come up, but no one made some huffy declination, they just let the others in the pew go ahead of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/315 "2021-11-15T22:18:49Z")
> **[One Jew, Two Opinions | My Jewish Learning](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/one-jew-two-opinions/)** > > We have all heard – and used – the expression “two Jews, three opinions.” And although we employ it jokingly, ... > **[112107TwoJewsThreeOpinions.pdf](https://www.sinaitemple.org/learning_with_the_rabbis/writings/2007/112107TwoJewsThreeOpinions.pdf)** > > 20.49 KB _In my first Talmud class, I was given an invaluable piece of advice. My_ _teacher told us that if we were ever drifting off or not paying attention, and_ _were asked a question, to answer: “there’s a machloket” — a disagreement._ _If you say that, he commented with a sparkle in his eye, you will always be_ _right._ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/316 "2021-11-16T05:00:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Babale wasn’t (at least in this latest exchange) saying Dibble was Christsplaining, he was saying DrDeth was. Aah, hypocritically hurled pejoratives should only matter to me when they’re directed at me, I get it… ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/317 "2021-11-16T12:48:14Z")
Now you’re just pejorasplaining! I’m only kidding! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/318 "2021-11-16T17:23:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now entirely secular, on a par with Thanksgiving. I’m an atheist who grew up in a Christian family and who lives in the mountains of North Carolina. Without strong stats, I wouldn’t feel comfortable speculating on the religious content of my _next door neighbor’s_ celebration of Christmas, much less my city as a whole, much less the rural areas of my county, much less a nearby city, much less a county in the eastern part of the state, much less another state, much less _an entire nation on the other side of the planet_. It’s breathtaking the level of assumptions being made here. What do I know? I know that local churches (and there are a LOT of local churches) are packed on Christmas and in the weeks leading up to them. I know that I hear Christmas hymns in stores around here. I know that every year I have co-workers who give me a religious Christmas card. I know that my dad–who AFAICT hasn’t gone to church since the 1990s and who considers himself Buddhist more than anything else–still tells my daughers the story of baby Jesus at some point every year when we visit over Christmas. I know that the stats show that a majority of Americans celebrate Christmas as a partially religious holiday. I celebrate Christmas, too. Even though I’m pretty comfortably atheist, I love the hymns of my youth, I think they’re lovely. I’ve led Christmas caroling at my school (replacing the words in _God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman_ with _Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus_ and so on). Around Hanukah, we always make latkes and buy jelly doughnuts. The issue is complicated, and what’s purely religious (church services) and what’s gentle iconography that joyfully reinforces the religious stories (manger scenes or angels on trees) and what’s only tangentially religious (Santa) and what’s purely secular (wreaths) often bleed into one another in a confusing manner. It seems incredibly simplistic to make any broad brush statements about how it’s celebrated in my own community, much less in a community on the other side of the planet. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/319 "2021-11-16T17:38:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What do I know? I know that local churches (and there are a LOT of local churches) are packed on Christmas and in the weeks leading up to them. I know that I hear Christmas hymns in stores around here. I know that every year I have co-workers who give me a religious Christmas card. > > I know that my dad–who AFAICT hasn’t gone to church since the 1990s and who considers himself Buddhist more than anything else–still tells my daughers the story of baby Jesus at some point every year when we visit over Christmas. > > I know that the stats show that a majority of Americans celebrate Christmas as a partially religious holiday. I know all that too. I _also_ know the _massive_ amount of secular media, secular activities and secular traditions around the holiday. They are well-documented, in our movies, TV, radio, in our spending (once again, that _$1_ _trillion_ US Christmas spend isn’t going into the collection plate). Your dad tells your daughters the baby Jesus story, but I bet he also buys them presents… > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It seems incredibly simplistic to make any broad brush statements about how it’s celebrated in my own community, much less in a community on the other side of the planet. I wouldn’t presume if it wasn’t _so_ obviously broadcast. Secular Christmas is the best-publicized holiday out there, and I mean globally. There’s entire industries devoted to it, it’s a genre (or six\*) of its very own, and it grows year-on-year. \* I mean, “Christmas Horror” is [its own genre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christmas_horror_films). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/320 "2021-11-16T17:40:35Z")
That word “entirely” in your quote is the main objection I have to what you said. I think you’ve withdrawn it, but all the cut & paste makes it hard for me to remember whether you have. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/321 "2021-11-16T17:42:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I _also_ know the _massive_ amount of secular media, secular activities and secular traditions around the holiday. They are well-documented, in our movies, TV, radio, in our spending (once again, that _$1_ _trillion_ US Christmas spend isn’t going into the collection plate). This explains SO MUCH. Yes, Hollywood scrubs religion from Christmas to avoid offending anyone who might otherwise give them money. But reality isn’t a sitcom. You might as well draw palentological conclusions based on the latest Jurassic Park movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=17)