# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/322 "2021-11-16T17:44:12Z")
I’ll concede “entirely secular” was wrongful hyperbole, and settle for “_majorly_ secular in terms of fraction of time and effort devoted vs on religious activities, enough that the holiday overall is secular in character” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/323 "2021-11-16T17:46:53Z")
Two of my close friends throw enormous Christmas parties. One is outdoors, and recreates a creche with live animals. The other sings Christmas carols. Neither invite me to their parties, despite being close enough that they would ordinarily invite me to a party of that size and with that audience. They don’t invite me because they consider their parties to be religious in nature, and they know I’m not a Christian. Just one data point. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/324 "2021-11-16T17:49:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yes, Hollywood scrubs religion from Christmas to avoid offending anyone who might otherwise give them money. But reality isn’t a sitcom. No, the movies themselves, watching them, are the secular thing there, not just the idealized content of them (not that I agree they’re that sanitized - ever watch a Hallmark Christmas romance?). Every 2 hours spent watching _Jingle All The Way_ is two hours in the secular column, not the religious one. Every listen to “Santa Baby” cancels out a “Little Town of Bethlehem”, and Mariah’s airplay numbers are way higher than any church choir you care to mention And of course you skipped right past the “secular activities and secular traditions” part of that whole sentence, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/325 "2021-11-16T18:26:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Every 2 hours spent watching _Jingle All The Way_ is two hours in the secular column, not the religious one. Every listen to “Santa Baby” cancels out a “Little Town of Bethlehem” That seems like a weird metric. I agree that watching “jingle all the way” is primarily a secular activity. But why does listening to a secular Christmas song cancel out listening to a religious one? I would have though the odds of the religious song stirring religious sentiments is perhaps 30%, and the odds of the secular sing doing so is perhaps 2% – but still greater than the odds of feeling religious Christian thoughts while watching “Dune”. After all, the secular Christmas song brings up memories of going to church and thinking about Jesus. I also suspect that there’s a great deal more religious celebration of Christmas in the US than wherever you are familiar with it. Because most everything you say sounds tone-deaf, as if you just aren’t getting it. But maybe there’s not as much “it” to get in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/326 "2021-11-16T18:51:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But why does listening to a secular Christmas song cancel out listening to a religious one? The time spent doing the one is time _not_ spent doing the other. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > the secular Christmas song brings up memories of going to church and thinking about Jesus. Why on Earth would “Santa Baby” stir memories of _church_? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I also suspect that there’s a great deal more religious celebration of Christmas in the US than wherever you are familiar with it. Because most everything you say sounds tone-deaf, as if you just aren’t getting it. But maybe there’s not as much “it” to get in South Africa. To repeat myself - I see no evidence that the US is much more religious (and specifically Christian) than South Africa overall. If anything, South Africa trends [more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country) [religious](https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/) (and its Christians _more_ Christian, as it were) than the USA by quite a bit (like 10-15% depending on the metric). If you were projecting American exceptionalism onto the level of Christianity there compared to here, you’re sadly mistaken. American Christianity is _less_ devoutly Christian than South African Christianity by many metrics from church attendance to professed degree of devotion. Only daily prayer is higher in the US (and not by much) Secular Christmas celebrations still overwhelm the religious parts, though. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/327 "2021-11-16T19:07:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why on Earth would “Santa Baby” stir memories of _church_ ? “Santa Baby” specifically might not - but I can absolutely imagine that other secular Christmas songs might trigger memories of church for someone who remembers singing " Frosty the Snowman" when they went Christmas caroling with a church group or who remembers singing " I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" at the children’s choir Christmas concert. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/328 "2021-11-16T19:35:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > To repeat myself - I see no evidence that the US is much more religious (and specifically Christian) than South Africa overall. If anything, South Africa trends [more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country) [religious](https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/) (and its Christians _more_ Christian, as it were) than the USA by quite a bit (like 10-15% depending on the metric). > > If you were projecting American exceptionalism onto the level of Christianity there compared to here, you’re sadly mistaken. American Christianity is _less_ devoutly Christian than South African Christianity by many metrics from church attendance to professed degree of devotion. Only daily prayer is higher in the US (and not by much) Well, my only evidence of the difference is your posts on the topic, which are really off-base as compared to all the evidence I’ve seen living in the US. I really have no opinion of religious practice in South Africa. Mostly I’m trying to understand what could be prompting your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/329 "2021-11-16T20:06:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll concede “entirely secular” was wrongful hyperbole, and settle for “ _majorly_ secular in terms of fraction of time and effort devoted vs on religious activities, enough that the holiday overall is secular in character” I’m just not sure that this calculus makes sense, where it can be characterized as “overall secular” because of the relative amount of secular vs. religious activity. If I went to an auto mechanic and they spent 95% of their time fixing my car and 5% preaching at me, I wouldn’t call it an overall secular auto mechanic. If a Wicca friend celebrated Halloween with masks and trick-or-treating and yard decor and also a Samhain ritual honoring the coming darkness, I’d not call it an overall secular celebration of Halloween. A New Year’s Party that was like any other New Year’s party except that the host asked us all to bow our heads at midnight and pray to Jesus asking him to bless the new year? I’d characterize that as a significantly religious party. I guess I see any significant religious activity during a holiday as flavoring that holiday. Halloween is secular because almost nobody has a religious celebration then (I’d guess fewer than 5% of celebrants, although I’d love to see stats). I’ve literally never heard of an acquaintance attending a service related to St. Valentine’s Day. But I grew up going to Moravian love feasts, and I know plenty of folks who attend Christmas services of one stripe or another, and I see tons of religious iconography around the season. It’s fundamentally different, in my experience, from the holidays that I really would consider “overall secular.” ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/330 "2021-11-16T20:17:53Z")
I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but it seems to me that Mr. Dibble has a notion, which nobody else seems to find reasonable, that you can objectively determine how “secular” a holiday is just by looking at what percentage of the time, energy and money devoted to celebrating it is overtly religious in content. But most others feel that if the motivation for partying is observing a religious holiday, then the partying is, to some extent, a religious action even in the total absence of religious content. And since it’s been established that two-thirds of Americans view their Christmas observance as at least somewhat religiously motivated, it’s clearly a religious holiday. I concede that Christmas in America is a unique cultural construct, hard to compare to anything else. On the one hand, it’s clearly a Christian observance, as we see from the manger scenes, religious carols, etc. On the other hand, there’s a whole other universe of secular/consumerist Christmas symbolism (wreaths, Santa) which has emerged in the last century or so, and which is increasingly what we see in public spaces. As society has grown more diverse and secular, we’re increasingly uncomfortable with overt public displays of religiosity, but most people still love to celebrate Christmas, so here we are. It’s certainly _possible_ in modern America to celebrate an entirely Jesus-free Christmas, but the people who are doing that are clearly a minority of the overall group of Christmas celebrants. On edit: Darn it, LHoD, how dare you say the same thing I said, only more clearly? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/331 "2021-11-16T20:19:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I went to an auto mechanic and they spent 95% of their time fixing my car and 5% preaching at me, I wouldn’t call it an overall secular auto mechanic It’s not about what’s being done to you, it’s about what you’re doing yourself. If I spent 95% of my day doing non-religious stuff and only 5 % doing religious stuff, I would not count it as having “spent the day being religious”. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A New Year’s Party that was like any other New Year’s party except that the host asked us all to bow our heads at midnight and pray to Jesus asking him to bless the new year? I’d characterize that as a significantly religious party. I would not. My country’s president concludes every Covid press briefing with a brief call for God to bless the country. Doesn’t make those briefings religious rituals. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I guess I see any significant religious activity during a holiday as flavoring that holiday I guess I don’t. Not when it’s 90% vs10%. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s fundamentally different, in my experience, from the holidays that I really would consider “overall secular.” Your list of what’s secular includes two holidays others have argued _are_ religious. So even on the “religious Christmas” side, what’s secular and not isn’t agreed upon. So I’ll remain unconvinced . ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/332 "2021-11-16T20:25:34Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I concede that Christmas in America is a unique cultural construct, hard to compare to anything else America is in no way special in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/333 "2021-11-16T20:32:27Z")
Well, we’ve identified the basic source of disagreement, I suppose. Let’s talk about Hanukkah, one of the two most widely celebrated holidays in Jewish America (around 80%, so including a lot of very secular people). On Hanukkah, you gather your friends and family, light some candles, say a brief prayer, and then get on with the party. Even in the most Orthodox circles, fulfilling the actual religious obligations of the holiday takes less than two minutes, and the vast majority of the time is spent in partying which looks very much like the partying that could happen any time of the year. Even in the most liberal circles, nobody would feel like it was a Hanukkah party if that two minute ritual was skipped. So, unlike Christmas, this is a case where very religious people and “culturally Jewish” atheists are doing the exact same things. Is this a religious or secular/cultural holiday, and how can you tell? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/334 "2021-11-16T20:34:14Z")
Granted. “Christmas in the developed capitalist West”. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/335 "2021-11-16T20:34:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Secular Christmas celebrations still overwhelm the religious parts, though. Overwhelm is a fairly subjective word in this context. As others have said, if the prime motivation is to celebrate a religious holiday, but the way it is celebrated doesn’t directly involve sacred objects or ceremonies, it’s still mainly a religious holiday. And regardless of the number of TV shows, movies, and songs you see and hear, most Americans who celebrate Christmas associate it with Christianity. What evidence would be sufficient to convince you of this? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/336 "2021-11-16T20:48:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If I spent 95% of my day doing non-religious stuff and only 5 % doing religious stuff, I would not count it as having “spent the day being religious”. Real life questions: I sometimes take off work for certain Jewish holidays because I am supposed to do so, even though I have no plans to actually do anything related to the holiday. I might go for a bike ride, have a nice lunch, play video games, whatever. In my mind, all these would be in the service of fulfilling the commandment to “rejoice on the holidays”, but if you were to spy on me all day, you would see no outward evidence at all that anything I was doing was religious in nature. And yet, between work and commute time, I spent most of my waking hours behaving very differently than I would on a typical weekday. So would you say that I had “spent the day being religious”? Similarly, if I am going to host a Passover seder in my home which lasts two hours, and I spend eighteen hours shopping, cleaning and cooking ahead of time, does that mean that the holiday is only 10% religious for me, but completely religious for the people who didn’t spend time preparing, but just showed up? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/337 "2021-11-16T21:13:11Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And since it’s been established that two-thirds of Americans view their Christmas observance as at least somewhat religiously motivated, it’s clearly a religious holiday. Well, that was from a survey. And people lie on surveys. My Mom used to tell people we went to church on Easter and Christmas. Well, yeah- like once each. But she wanted people to think we went, although we didn’t hardly ever. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > On the one hand, it’s clearly a Christian observance, as we see from the manger scenes, religious carols, etc. Manger scenes, at least around here in LA CA are rare, and never on public property. As I have said before and have shown from "top Christmas songs’ lists, etc, overtly Christian carols being played over the airwaves or in stores, malls etc are well less that 5%. All I ever hear is _Little Drummer Boy_ and _Silent Night_ of that ilk. Now sure churches do a land office business on Christmas, but remember a good % of church goers see it as a community or social gathering. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/338 "2021-11-16T21:17:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > at least around here in LA CA I’m not sure how typical that is of the USA as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/339 "2021-11-16T21:23:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Manger scenes, at least around here in LA CA are rare, and never on public property. Note that a big part of that is legal restrictions on government entanglement with religion. It’s not that there aren’t a lot of Christians who want to put manger scenes on public property, it’s that the law generally won’t let them. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/340 "2021-11-16T21:26:47Z")
Both Silent Night and Little Drummer Boy have explicitly religious lyrics! "’“round yon virgin, mother and child, holy infant…” You might say she was a virgin, but that’s not what I heard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/341 "2021-11-16T21:59:54Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Both Silent Night and Little Drummer Boy have explicitly religious lyrics! I didn’t say they didn’t, in fact those were the two I called out as being Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=18)