# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/342 "2021-11-16T22:31:58Z")
Oh, right, I see I misread your post. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/343 "2021-11-17T13:14:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If I spent 95% of my day doing non-religious stuff and only 5 % doing religious stuff, I would not count it as having “spent the day being religious”. First, I’m not sure percentages accurately reflect what’s going on. Tell me that you spent 5% of last year sleeping, and I’ll wonder how you’re still alive: that was a sleep deprived year. Tell me you spent 0.05% of last year murdering people, and I’ll think of that as a pretty murdery year for you. We can’t just declare something arbitrarily not X if X is less than a certain percent. That said, I’m surprised at what you say here. 5% of a day is a little more than an hour. If someone is spending more than an hour a day engaged in purely religious activities, yeah, I’m gonna think of them as a pretty religious person. What’s the cutoff for you? 10% (~2 hours)? 15% (~3.5 hours)? 20% (~5 hours)? Religion is like salt: a little bit of it heavily flavors the experience. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/344 "2021-11-17T14:43:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We can’t just declare something arbitrarily not X if X is less than a certain percent. Of course we can, it would vary from topic to topic. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What’s the cutoff for you? 10% (~2 hours)? 15% (~3.5 hours)? 20% (~5 hours)? It’s relative to the amount of time spent on secular activities, _not_ the total hours in the day. So if someone spent 1 hour on religious activities and say 4 on secular ones, that’s _not_ the 5/95 split I’m talking about. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Religion is like salt: a little bit of it heavily flavors the experience. A little? Like, say, One Drop? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/345 "2021-11-17T14:53:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A little? Like, say, One Drop? Oh my! That is clever! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/346 "2021-11-17T14:56:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Of course we can, it would vary from topic to topic. And what you’re encountering in this thread is that the people who live in the culture and celebrate the holiday in question put the bar in a very different position than you do. Most consider the holiday religious, even those who don’t consider themselves particularly religious. What makes your opinion more significant? Side note, genuine question, not snark. Have you lived in the US? If so, where and for how long? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/347 "2021-11-17T14:59:51Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > most Americans who celebrate Christmas associate it with Christianity. > > What evidence would be sufficient to convince you of this? I don’t need convincing that the holiday is associated with Christianity. I need evidence that the actual activities people engage in are more religious in nature than not. That the $1 trillion spend isn’t mostly spent on Mammon. That the secular entertainment and traditions like presents and lightshows and trees don’t take up most of the holiday. I don’t think you’re going to have much success at that. All I’m hearing here is “They’re doing all those things…but they’re really thinking of Baby Jesus while they do them” which is not very convincing. Or to quote some book or other, “By their fruits you shall know them”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/348 "2021-11-17T15:03:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And what you’re encountering in this thread is that the people who live in the culture and celebrate the holiday in question put the bar in a very different position than you do. They need to sue their wallets and their media representatives for slander, then. They’re also going to have to account for those Americans in this thread who do agree with me. > [@Telemark](#): > > What makes your opinion more significant? I don’t have any particular reason to lie to myself either way about how religious I am actually being, I guess. So for example, I’m not going into debt (as something like a third of people do) and pretending that’s Christian _anything_. I’m also not seeing that kind of secular activity and excusing it as “but they thought of the Magi while they whipped out that plastic…”. There’s nothing religious about an orgy of spending and feasting. Well, not Christian religious, at least - it’d fit right in with a _potlatch_. > [@Telemark](#): > > Have you lived in the US? No. Is that somehow relevant? It’s not like the spending and other activities aren’t well-documented. They _dominate_ the media for months on end, in fact. And anyway, I’ve already covered the ridiculous notion that the US is somehow more religious than South Africa. So is your argument that Americans Christians are less religious … _except_ at Christmastime? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/349 "2021-11-17T15:30:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A little? Like, say, One Drop? That’s not helpful, and it’s not what I said. But the amount of religious celebration I see in my community around Christmas makes me deeply skeptical of the claim in the OP, or of your modified version. I’ll trust that you’re describing your experience in South Africa correctly, and that your American friends are reporting their experiences accurately; it’d be helpful if you’d trust that I’m reporting mine accurately as well. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/350 "2021-11-17T15:47:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No. Is that somehow relevant? It’s not like the spending and other activities aren’t well-documented. They _dominate_ the media for months on end, in fact. Yes, but the media isn’t an actual representation of what people do and believe. You don’t have the context of the culture to understand that spending money on gifts doesn’t invalidate the reason for buying the gifts. You also fail to understand the context of those who are not Christian and don’t celebrate Christmas because it is a religious holiday because that isn’t represented in the media very much. So yes, it’s very relevant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/351 "2021-11-17T15:59:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not helpful, and it’s not what I said. It’s the same implication as what others have said, when I first raised that they were basically making a One Drop rule for religious content. Now, you’re not at the extreme that considers St Valentine’s a religious holiday, but you’re agreeing with them about Christmas. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But the amount of religious celebration I see in my community around Christmas makes me deeply skeptical of the claim in the OP, or of your modified version. Are you saying your community spends more time on the religious side of Christmas than it does on the secular aspects? Or that your community is immune from the holiday spending spree? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > it’d be helpful if you’d trust that I’m reporting mine accurately as well. I trust that you’re reporting the _religious_ side of things accurately, but I think you’re _sharply_ discounting the amount of secular activities. You never did reply as to whether your dad buys your daughters presents, but if he does : how long do you think he spends shopping for them, wrapping them, etc? Do you take that time into account as secular time? How does it compare to Baby Jesus story time? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/352 "2021-11-17T16:11:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > But the amount of religious celebration I see in my community around Christmas makes me deeply skeptical of the claim in the OP, or of your modified version. > > Are you saying your community spends more time on the religious side of Christmas than it does on the secular aspects? Or that your community is immune from the holiday spending spree? I don’t see how spending time on the secular aspects of Christmas invalidates the time spent on religious aspects. I think that’s the major divide here. That just seems completely irrelevant to me. If you said, “despite the massive amount of energy spent on the secular side, the amount of energy spent on the religious side is tiny”, that would make sense. I don’t agree with that, but I think that would be a completely valid argument. But “yes, they care deeply about the religious significance of Christmas, but they also buy a lot of non-religious crap because it’s an excuse to buy stuff you want” doesn’t invalidate the energy a person invests in the religious aspects, in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/353 "2021-11-17T16:16:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Yes, but the media isn’t an actual representation of what people do and believe. The media content may not be (although I’d quibble that it’s _that_ removed from reality), but the _existence_ of the media is. I’m repeating myself (again) but it’s also the _consumption_ of the media that I’m talking about. > [@Telemark](#): > > You don’t have the context of the culture to understand that spending money on gifts doesn’t invalidate the reason for buying the gifts. In the case of Christmas, where buying gifts _isn’t_ a religious commandment, the _reason_ is secular. > [@Telemark](#): > > You also fail to understand the context of those who are not Christian and don’t celebrate Christmas because it is a religious holiday because that isn’t represented in the media very much. I don’t _agree_ that context is going to somehow render the secular things I can clearly see, like tree toppers, somehow actually religious. > [@Telemark](#): > > So yes, it’s very relevant. Only if you are pretending that somehow America is a secret society that doesn’t reveal its actual practices in so many channels. I don’t get my information on American Christmas from the plot of Hallmark movies, I get it from news reports, from business news, from actual Americans I know (from Seattle to Louisiana, and the Twin Cities to Boston, and Houston to South Carolina), _and_ all the entertainment media you produce. Tell me all the plastic reindeer on the roofs are made up. Tell me I imagined Mariah singing “Santa Baby”. Tell me you don’t prize spending on Christmas so much that a sizeable fraction of you end up in debt. Tell me those things, and I’ll buy that I’ve been wrong about the degree to which the holiday is secularized. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/354 "2021-11-17T16:22:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But “yes, they care deeply about the religious significance of Christmas, but they also buy a lot of non-religious crap because it’s an excuse to buy stuff you want” doesn’t invalidate the energy a person invests in the religious aspects, in my mind. It doesn’t _invalidate_ it, if by that you mean render _that_ act non-religious. But for considering the degree of secularity of the holiday as a whole? It _does_ cancel it out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/355 "2021-11-17T16:24:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Santa Baby Slight correction - the Mariah song is called “Oh Santa”, not “Santa Baby”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/356 "2021-11-17T16:24:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But for considering the degree of secularity of the holiday as a whole? It _does_ cancel it out. No, it doesn’t. If I make a soup with 8 cups of water and half a cup of salt, nobody is going to say, “That soup has way more water than salt, it’s not a salty soup.” Religious and secular components aren’t on a 1:1 basis canceling each other out. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/357 "2021-11-17T16:25:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Tell me all the plastic reindeer on the roofs are made up. Tell me the 67% of the people who say their celebration of Christmas is _Strongly or Somewhat Religious_ is made up? You’re cherry picking evidence and excluding the experiences of the people involved. My wife decorates the house with Santas because her mom (now passed away) loved Santa. But she also has the creche from her childhood and until recently we went to midnight mass. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive, and the secular aspects of certain rituals have a religious basis. You’ve offered many insights into things in South Africa that someone who hasn’t lived there would never know. I think your viewing of American media has given you a skewed notion of how people behave and believe. If you think that someone putting plastic reindeer on their roof somehow means they aren’t deeply religious you are sorely mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/358 "2021-11-17T16:26:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > But “yes, they care deeply about the religious significance of Christmas, but they also buy a lot of non-religious crap because it’s an excuse to buy stuff you want” doesn’t invalidate the energy a person invests in the religious aspects, in my mind. > > It doesn’t _invalidate_ it, if by that you mean render _that_ act non-religious. > > But for considering the degree of secularity of the holiday as a whole? It _does_ cancel it out. Why? Serious question. I don’t think it does in the least. It just means that Christmas has multiple aspects. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/359 "2021-11-17T16:32:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it doesn’t. If I make a soup with 8 cups of water and half a cup of salt, nobody is going to say, “That soup has way more water than salt, it’s not a salty soup.” If it _used_ to have half a cup, and _now_ it has a tablespoon, are people going to be justified in calling it watered down? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Religious and secular components aren’t on a 1:1 basis canceling each other out. Neither are they at a One Drop basis. > [@Telemark](#): > > Tell me the 67% of the people who say their celebration of Christmas is _Strongly or Somewhat Religious_ is made up? It’s not made up, it’s just cognitive dissonnance. Unless that $1 trillion _isn’t_ mostly being spent on tree trinkets, turkeys and toys… > [@Telemark](#): > > You’re cherry picking evidence and excluding the experiences of the people involved. I’m going by what people actually do, not just what they say. I’m not excluding their experience, but I’m not privileging it over the other evidence. > [@Telemark](#): > > If you think that someone putting plastic reindeer on their roof somehow means they aren’t deeply religious you are sorely mistaken. And we’re back to strawmen. 🙄 They can be deeply religious, but if they’re spending their time around the holiday doing the secular reindeer-hanging, I’m counting that time as secular. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/360 "2021-11-17T16:34:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Why? If you’re _going to_ judge things as secular or religious, you have to have some basis for comparison. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think it does in the least. So no amount of secularity is going to be enough for you, clearly. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > . It just means that Christmas has multiple aspects. No-one has argued that it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/361 "2021-11-17T16:37:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If it _used_ to have half a cup, and _now_ it has a tablespoon, are people going to be justified in calling it watered down? Sure–but if they tell me it’s not salty, I’ll disagree–especially if it has a quarter cup. > [@](#): > > Neither are they at a One Drop basis. _That’s exactly my point_. I’m saying that _in my experience_, there’s enough religious activity at Christmas that it’s a significantly religious activity around this time. The amount of secular activity doesn’t cancel it out, nor does the amount of religious activity in the past. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=19)