# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/62 "2021-11-10T19:38:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > FFS, dude, you’re expecting non-Christian Americans to treat the iconography of Christian angels etc… > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Good luck, though, Kimstu. We appear to be dealing with somebody who can’t tell the difference between saying that angels are a Christian religious symbol and saying that Christians worship tree ornaments. Angels are in the OT and are part of Islam and Judaism also. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/63 "2021-11-10T19:58:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The holiday in question is fundamentally and explicitly Christian, which is why it still has all the explicitly Christian religious iconography associated with it. It has all the iconography associated with it because of history. That means it’s Christian in origin, not practice. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Such a holiday can become completely secularized, precisely by removing all the explicitly religious iconography from it. That’s one way. Another is for the symbols to remain but lose their _active_ religious connection. Like the tree topper. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But when you leave in Christian religious iconography like angels and Nativity scenes and hymns about baby Jesus, even if you intend them as nothing but decoration with no theological or ritual purpose whatsoever, then you’ve got a holiday that is incompletely secularized. I disagree. That’s _precisely_ what it means for them to be secularized: “convert from religious to secular possession or use.”, “dissociate or separate from religious or spiritual concerns.” When the tree topper becomes just a decoration, it’s thoroughly and completely secularized. No “incomplete” about it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope: Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now largely secular. There’s a difference. I don’t agree. Or perhaps better put, I don’t agree there’s enough of a difference to matter. The degree of secularization is so great that “largely” vs “entirely” are not distinguishable for the majority of society. > [@Kimstu](#): > > And that difference is why many non-Christians object to Christian trappings of Christmas being included And many other _non_-Christians don’t object, and dive completely into secular Christmas. That some non-Christians think it’s still a religious holiday is very much a “them” problem, not a universal problem, to the same degree that some Christians decrying the secularization of the holiday are of no concern. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > They are also engaging in actual religious activities. To a miniscule extent compared to the secular ones. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So those of us living in the USA are living in a country in which a significant portion of the population is actively arguing that the USA is specifically a Christian nation; that children ought to be taught that in school; and they are voting on that basis, to try to impose laws on the country as a whole which are based on the religious beliefs of their specific sects of Christianity. Then vote them out. You think taking away one of the most popular holidays of the entire culture is going to sway people away from those idiots? What you should be doing is pushing for _more_ secularization. Or even syncretism - get that _dreidl_ into a Hallmark Christmas move! > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That is not in the least the position anyone in this discussion has taken. > [@Kimstu](#): > > removing **all** the explicitly religious iconography from it. If that’s not One Drop, what is? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/64 "2021-11-10T20:02:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now entirely secular, on a par with Thanksgiving. There’s no real rationale for objecting to it as a holiday on the grounds of its religious roots. And I say this as a completely non-religious person. Ironically, many of the early settlers to America from Europe were wanting to get away from Christmas because of the secular celebrations, which sound to me like there was a hell of a lot (so to speak) of fun. 🙂 I agree with you here. While Christmas is still celebrated as a religious day by Christians, the holiday itself has long ago transcended its religious roots, becoming an iconic and non-secular holiday. I get that this annoys Christians, but it is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/65 "2021-11-10T20:11:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > becoming an iconic and non-secular holiday I think you mean “secular holiday” here 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/66 "2021-11-10T20:23:20Z")
Of course Christmas is a religious holiday, and it’s absurd to pretend otherwise. In much of mainstream American society, it’s been secularized to the point that non-Christians commonly feel comfortable taking part. But that’s true only for “non-Christians” in the sense of “people with no particular religious beliefs”. I think you will find that, almost unanimously, Americans who are strongly committed to a particular non-Christian religion (or to militant atheism) avoid participating in even highly secularized Christmas celebrations. Certainly among American Jews, this attitude extends to many Jews who are by no stretch of the imagination “committed” to religious Judaism, and I imagine it is similar in other minority communities. (Of course, many American Jews are fine with celebrating Christmas, but those aren’t the seriously religious ones). I haven’t read the whole thread carefully, but I’m puzzled as to who Dibble thinks is proposing to “abolish” Christmas, or even frowning on people who celebrate it, whether in Jesus- or Santa-oriented fashion. But several people, many citing their own lived experience, are trying to explain to him why some people might prefer to avoid participating. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/67 "2021-11-10T20:24:00Z")
lol, yes…that’s what it should have been. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/68 "2021-11-10T20:26:32Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread carefully, but I’m puzzled as to who Dibble thinks is proposing to “abolish” Christmas This whole thing arose in the Columbus Day thread over whether Christmas _should_ be a recognized US holiday due to its supposed religious nature. I have exactly zero issue with people avoiding participating in it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/69 "2021-11-10T20:30:16Z")
Being a religious minority in America has its downsides, but at least nobody is trying to tell me that my religious holidays aren’t actually religious, but some sort of nonspecific seasonal-cheer events. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/70 "2021-11-10T20:35:58Z")
Ah, OK, that’s clear. My opinion is that since the vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, it’s only practical that everyone should get the day off, and it would be silly to make up some alternative “official” name for the holiday in the name of multiculturalism. I feel that this is just acknowledging social reality, rather than establishing religion. Same thing for the school districts around here that close on Yom Kippur; they’re not telling anyone to be Jewish, they’re just acknowledging that most of the kids won’t show up that day anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/71 "2021-11-10T20:47:30Z")
So, as someone who was raised Muslim, but am now Christian (after a decade long sojourn into Atheism), my experiences argue that Christmas is indeed more of a religious rather than a secular holiday on the whole. When growing up we NEVER celebrated Christmas, because it was a Christian holiday. My brother and sister-in-law (who are still Muslim) however do, under the rationale that Jesus was a very important Muslim prophet. We never had the same issues with Halloween and Thanksgiving, and celebrated them both with gusto (Thanksgiving remains my favorite holiday). I don’t think I even knew Halloween was connected to Christianity in its roots until I was in college. Now, there are ways that Christmas can be celebrated ‘secularly’… but so can Easter. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/72 "2021-11-10T21:06:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are they though? My Jewish family did not celebrate Halloween (though sometimes I’d go trick or tricking with friends, raised in Christian families). I’m a little confused here - for the most part, participating in trick-or-treating _is_ how Halloween is celebrated. Sure, people decorate their houses - but that’s usually also an indication that they are giving out treats. And aside from parents taking young children trick-or-treating ( or the equivalent) it’s really not a family holiday - the group that’s a little too old for trick or treating may have a party with costumes but it’s usually not a family party. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/73 "2021-11-10T21:07:05Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Now, there are ways that Christmas can be celebrated ‘secularly’… but so can Easter. Actually, Easter is another example of this, though to a lesser degree. Indeed, Christmas is a religious day of observance for (most) Christian sects, but the way it’s celebrated in the US, today (and for a while now) is more as a secular holiday. I don’t think many people even realize that Santa Claus was (theoretically) a Christain saint (and many Christian sects don’t go for the whole saint thingy anyway). IMHO, outside of hardcore Catholic types, Christmas is really a secular holiday with some Christian trappings. Easter is as well, though to a lesser degree, since it’s just not as popular a holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/74 "2021-11-10T21:10:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The secular components are what it’s all about now. The presents, the eggnog, the completely non-Christian tree, the Fat Man. That’s what Christmas _is_ now. That’s may be what Christmas is now _for non-Christians who celebrate Christmas_. It’s _not_ what Christmas is all about for Christians. Nor for people of other religions who don’t celebrate it because they think of it as a Christian holiday. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/75 "2021-11-10T21:11:29Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I’m a little confused here - for the most part, participating in trick-or-treating _is_ how Halloween is celebrated. Sure, people decorate their houses - but that’s usually also an indication that they are giving out treats. And aside from parents taking young children trick-or-treating ( or the equivalent) it’s really not a family holiday - the group that’s a little too old for trick or treating may have a party with costumes but it’s usually not a family party. It’s All Hollows Day and definitely is a day of religious observance for Catholics at least. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/76 "2021-11-10T21:14:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > IMHO, outside of hardcore Catholic types, Christmas is really a secular holiday with some Christian trappings. Easter is as well, though to a lesser degree, since it’s just not as popular a holiday. I think this may be another example of where you live. We are hardly hardcore Catholics (it’d be hard to do so when one is Lutheran), but our Christmas is religious focused and our church tends to be packed on Christmas Eve (one of the few days that it is). Many churches are far more packed to the gills on Christmas Eve. Easter even more so. The vast majority of my non-religious friends have no idea when it even is, so it seems to me to be almost exclusively a Christian celebration of the resurrection of Christ. There are a few who do bunnies and Easter eggs and that’s it, but I think when it became more socially acceptable to not give a damn about Easter, they just dropped all of that. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/77 "2021-11-10T21:16:38Z")
October 31 (Halloween) is not a day of religious observance for Catholics. All Hallow’s ( or All Saint’s ) day, November 1st is the date of the religious observance… Although the name Hallween does come from All Hallow’s Eve, there is no religious obligation for Catholics on Halloween- the closest thing is that they may fulfill their Mass attendance for November 1 on the evening of October 31, just as a Saturday evening Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/78 "2021-11-10T21:21:28Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > October 31 (Halloween) is not a day of religious observance for Catholics. All Hallow’s ( or All Saint’s ) day, November 1st is. Although the name Hallween does come from All Hallow’s Eve, there is no religious obligation for Catholics on Halloween- the closest thing is that they may fulfill their Mass attendance for November 1 on the evening of October 31, just as a Saturday evening Mass fulfills a the Sunday obligation. Ok, that’s true, I was thinking of November 1st and putting that as part of Halloween (All Hollows Eve as you said, verse All Saints Day). To me, it’s all part of the Dia de los Muertos, even though that starts on November 2nd. It all sort of mixes together in my mind, especially from my childhood when this stuff was important (these days I’m not even Catholic in name only…and we don’t celebrate even from a secular perspective any of these things, as the kids are all grown up, with even the youngest being 20). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/79 "2021-11-10T21:25:04Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > October 31 (Halloween) is not a day of religious observance for Catholics. All Hallow’s ( or All Saint’s ) day, November 1st is the date of the religious observance… Although the name Hallween does come from All Hallow’s Eve, there is no religious obligation for Catholics on Halloween- the closest thing is that they may fulfill their Mass attendance for November 1 on the evening of October 31, just as a Saturday evening Mass fulfills the Sunday obligation. It’s more a day of religious observance for Lutherans (Reformation Day) 😉 . We tend to celebrate it the last Sunday of October and then All Saints as the first Sunday of November. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/80 "2021-11-10T21:55:22Z")
I have not read the whole thread (who could?) but ISTM that Christians think it has become purely secular, while non-Christians think of it as religious. No one’s opinion will be changed by repeating the same points and I do not doubt that these are both quite reasonable positions. I was raised as a secular Jew and we mostly ignored Christmas, perceiving it as a Christian celebration. We raised our kids the same way. Never had a tree and celebrated Hanukah. But I can certainly see that actual religious Christians see how secular it has become and I would not attempt to argue the point. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/81 "2021-11-10T22:11:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now entirely secular The majority celebrates an entirely secular Christmas? 🤨 > **[More Americans Celebrating a Secular Christmas](https://news.gallup.com/poll/272378/americans-celebrating-secular-christmas.aspx)** > > While 93% of Americans celebrate Christmas, the percentage describing their holiday celebrations as "strongly religious" has reached an all-time low. > Religiosity of Christmas Since 2005 > > Thinking of the way you personally celebrate Christmas, is it a strongly religious holiday, somewhat religious or not too religious? > > | | Strongly religious | Somewhat religious | Not too religious | Do not celebrate | > | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | > | | % | % | % | % | > | 2019 Dec 2-15 | 35 | 32 | 26 | 7 | > | 2010 Dec 10-12 | 50 | 29 | 16 | 5 | > | 2005 Dec 16-18 | 47 | 30 | 19 | 4 | Looks like a 35+32=67% majority still say the way they personally celebrate Christmas is at least somewhat religious. But that’s _Gallup_. A _Pew_ survey from 2017 left a thin margin, > **[Americans Say Religious Aspects of Christmas Are Declining in Public Life](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-aspects-of-christmas-are-declining-in-public-life/)** > > Most U.S. adults believe the religious aspects of Christmas are emphasized less now than in the past – even as relatively few are bothered by this trend. > Currently, **55% of U.S. adults say they celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday** , including 46% who see it as more of a religious holiday than a cultural holiday and 9% who celebrate Christmas as both a religious and a cultural occasion. In 2013, 59% of Americans said they celebrated Christmas as a religious holiday, including 51% who saw it as more religious than cultural and 7% who marked the day as both a religious and a cultural holiday. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=5)