# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/102 "2021-11-11T14:03:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you celebrate Passover because not celebrating Passover would make you antisemitic? I wasn’t aware of a secular passover. How do you celebrate it? I do go around wishing people a happy Hanukkah, spin a dreidle with my kids and give my kids presents. We even have a light up menorah. I’ve never worried that someone would mistake me for a jew since that isn’t a bad thing. Eta. We also watch eight crazy nights and listen to all three versions of the Hanukkah song. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/103 "2021-11-11T14:04:37Z")
I think it was my post that was misunderstood. And I didn’t say that anyone was afraid of being thought to be Christian, but that people didn’t want to be thought to be celebrating a Christian holiday – a holiday that isn’t theirs. In fact, I’d guess that some people don’t want to be thought by themselves that they might accidentally pick up some of the Christian bits. And there are LOTS of Christian bits to the celebration of Christmas, at least in the US. Starting with the name of the holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/104 "2021-11-11T14:07:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And I didn’t say that anyone was afraid of being thought to be Christian, but that people didn’t want to be thought to be celebrating a Christian holiday I guess I don’t understand the distinction. If only Christians celebrate Christmas because it is a religious holiday what is the difference between someone who celebrates Christmas and a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/105 "2021-11-11T14:08:49Z")
We celebrate Christmas and Chanukah. But no religion at all in the Christmas part, just the season, (Winter Solstice and all), capitalism, Santa and most importantly family. For Chanukah my wife says a prayer as she lights the candles. So for us, I an ex-Catholic, Christmas is secular. But for plenty of Americans it is religious. Easter is still pretty religious. A lot of Catholics only go to Easter Mass. It is a far more important religious Holiday than Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/106 "2021-11-11T14:09:12Z")
You don’t see the distinction between celebrating Christmas and being Christian? Really? I … guess I don’t even know where to begin. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/107 "2021-11-11T14:11:49Z")
Huge numbers of people celebrate Christmas without being Christian. Including large portions of Japan. But even in the US there are plenty of us that aren’t Christian or are ex-Christian that celebrate this awesome family holiday. Celebrating Christmas doesn’t make you Christian. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/108 "2021-11-11T14:15:34Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > If I said I didn’t want to be taken as Jewish or black I’m sure that would totally ok It would depend on the context; but I might well wonder whether that meant you felt there was something wrong with being Jewish or being Black. > [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’ve never worried that someone would mistake me for a jew since that isn’t a bad thing. But you think other people in this thread are worried that they’d be mistaken for Christians? Wouldn’t that imply that being Christian is a bad thing? > [@Oredigger77](#): > > If only Christians celebrate Christmas because it is a religious holiday what is the difference between someone who celebrates Christmas and a Christian? I don’t think anyone has said that only Christians celebrate something that they call Christmas. Only Christians celebrate it as a religious holiday, though. Because some people are celebrating only a secular holiday doesn’t mean that large numbers of others aren’t celebrating a religious holiday. Nor does it mean that the holiday, specifically in the USA, is not in its essence a religious holiday. I gather that it isn’t in Japan. I have no opinion as to whether it is in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/109 "2021-11-11T14:24:51Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > in its essence There’s the rub - _in its essence_, is it still religious, or has it been secularized? Not superficial aspects like the name or decor trinkets, but _how people actually spend their time_ in the holiday season. Because I’d say that’s the “essence” of any holiday - what people are doing, and their thoughts and feelings while doing it. And it shouldn’t need saying, but “in its essence” =/= “in origin”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/110 "2021-11-11T14:25:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I have no opinion as to whether it is in South Africa. I’ve been wondering if it might be a lot less religious in South Africa, too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/111 "2021-11-11T14:26:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve been wondering if it might be a lot less religious in South Africa, too. It’s, as far as I can tell, no more or less religious than in the US or the UK. So, mostly secular 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/112 "2021-11-11T14:27:11Z")
The distinction isn’t about whether only Christians celebrate Christmas (which is not true) . It’s about whether someone who doesn’t want people to think they are celebrating a Christian holiday are "afraid’ or “embarrassed” to be thought of as Christian as if they believe that it’s a bad thing rather than simply because they _aren’t_ Christian or because people will have expectations because they are believed to be Christian or because they don’t want to be accused of cultural appropriation. I am not Jewish - but people frequently believe I am. I understand why people make that assumption \* but I am not. It’s not embarrassing when people think I’m Jewish - it’s annoying. Not because there is anything wrong with being Jewish , but because of how I find out the assumption has been made. Here’s just one example ( there have been many others) Stanley - Doreen, we have to reschedule our training. Me - Why? Stanley- Because we are scheduled on the holiday. Me- What holiday? Stanley- Yom Kippur Me- Stanley, I’m not Jewish Stanley then falls all over himself apologizing for assuming I’m Jewish. \* I live in NYC, I have a German surname and my coloring and certain traits come from my mother’s Italian family. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/113 "2021-11-11T14:27:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > what people are doing, and their thoughts and feelings while doing it. Yes, and to a large fraction of Americans, Christmas is a time to contemplate “the true meaning of Christmas”, and think about their relationship with Jesus, and about other Christian-themed topics. Even if most of their actions are things that could be secular, Christmas is absolutely a Christian holiday in important ways to a huge fraction of the US. To a lot of my friends. I’m not speculating here, I know this from direct interaction with Christians celebrating Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/114 "2021-11-11T14:30:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You don’t see the distinction between celebrating Christmas and being Christian? Really? I … guess I don’t even know where to begin I think we got spun around again. I see a large difference between the secular and religious holiday. My family in fact doesn’t celebrate religious Christmas. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > i don’t begrudge non-Christians who want to avoid it so as not to be taken for celebrating that religious holiday. This seems to imply it would be a negative for these people to be taken as someone who celebrates Christmas. You clarified that it was particularly the > [@puzzlegal](#): > > that people didn’t want to be thought to be celebrating a Christian holiday – a holiday that isn’t theirs. These seems to deny the existence of secular holiday or imply that the people you’re talking about are ok with wearing Rudolph antlers but won’t sing ‘O come all ye faithful’. In either case in their particular understanding is that it would be a negative for them to be taken for someone who celebrates religious Christmas. I am uncertain who celebrates religious Christmas except for Christians. In these people’s case it would be a negative for them to be taken for a Christian. You seem to be saying I’m misreading you. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/115 "2021-11-11T14:36:33Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I see a large difference between the secular and religious holiday. My family in fact doesn’t celebrate religious Christmas. Many people who are some religion other than Christian in the US don’t see such a large difference. They don’t want to get sucked into the Christian holiday. Heck, my understanding is that early Christians CREATED the secular trappings of Christmas (or stole them from other religions) in a bid to help suck people into Christianity, or at least to let them continue their pre-Christian celebrations with a Christian spin. To proselytize. And while I celebrate some secular aspects of Christmas (and New Years, and the solstice, and the Lunar New Year) it can be, in fact, extremely embarrassing for a Jew to be seen to be celebrating Christmas. Or “going too far” in celebrating Christmas, depending on their social background. I believe that many US Muslims feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/116 "2021-11-11T14:52:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Heck, my understanding is that early Christians CREATED the secular trappings of Christmas (or stole them from other religions) in a bid to help suck people into Christianity, or at least to let them continue their pre-Christian celebrations with a Christian spin. To proselytize. That’s my understanding too although 1,500 years later it seems to have backfired. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > it can be, in fact, extremely embarrassing for a Jew to be seen to be celebrating Christmas. Or “going too far” in celebrating Christmas Is this because people think they are converting or it is just not how jews act? The limited subset of jews I know all have a Christmas tree (all though the two Christmas parties I’ve been to at their house both had stars rather than angels as tree toppers, I assume to minimize the religious imagery) and do Santa. I know at least 1 who puts up lights. I’m obviously not certain if any of them are seen as going too far. To generalize back to the thread I don’t understand why it would be a negative for anyone in a location that had it to celebrate secular Christmas or any other secular holiday. While there certainly shouldn’t be a requirement to celebrate I certainly look at people complaining about Christmas lights the way I do people complaining about fireworks on July 4th. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/117 "2021-11-11T14:53:25Z")
Growing up, my sisters’ best friend was Jewish but they had a Christmas Tree and some lights on the outside of the apartment. She would throw a sheet over the tree for when the Rabbi came over for her son’s lessons. I think this was prep for his Bar Mitzvah. My MIL enjoyed joining us in decorating the tree a few years. Though I’m pretty sure my wife said they never had a Chanukah Bush. (my wife and her family are Jewish, if that wasn’t obvious) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/118 "2021-11-11T14:55:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Angel on the tree – Christian > Hymns on the radio and over store loudspeakers – Christian > Hymns at official village etc. celebrations – Christian > Star of Bethlehem – Christian > Manger displays – Christian > Angels in the windows and on the front lawns – Christian > Church services widely promoted – Christian > About 90% of the cards around here, in imagery and/or wording --Christian > Paintings of Virgin Mary on USPS stamps – Christian > “Real Christmas” references – Christian > “Jesus Is The Reason For the Season” – Christian > ‘Say Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays’ – belligerent Christian > etc. I just don’t see ANY of this stuff except in church. ANY. You must live in a Bible Belt area. Example: USPS holiday stamps will feature a menorah, a Kwanzaa something, the Virgin and Child, and generic winter scene, and a reindeer/santa claus/tree theme or two. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/119 "2021-11-11T14:58:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Even if most of their actions are things that could be secular, Where’s the Christian-themed aspect to opening presents, lighting up your house and watching _The Grinch_? It’s not “could be” secular, it’s “are unabashedly” secular. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Christmas is absolutely a Christian holiday in important ways to a huge fraction of the US. To a lot of my friends. You’re not personally friends with a huge fraction of the US. And I have Christian friends in the US too, who definitely partake in all the secular aspects I’m referring to, and in a big way. Once again, I’m not saying Christians don’t celebrate religious aspects of the holiday, they unquestionably do. That explains MaxS’ stats, because that was the question asked. I’m saying they also participate in the secular aspects, _just as much as_ non-religious folks do. Non-religious folks aren’t the entirety of the more than $1 _trillion_ annual Xmas spend in the USA. That isn’t all going to votive candles… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/120 "2021-11-11T15:05:56Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I just don’t see ANY of this stuff except in church. ANY. You must live in a Bible Belt area. I’m in California and I see tons of this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/121 "2021-11-11T15:10:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Heck, my understanding is that early Christians CREATED the secular trappings of Christmas (or stole them from other religions) in a bid to help suck people into Christianity, or at least to let them continue their pre-Christian celebrations with a Christian spin. To proselytize. No, the early Christians did not celebrate Christmas at all. The holy season was Easter alone. The celebration of the birth of Jesus at the solstice was after Christianity was adopted as a state religion in Rome, that would be Constantine, 300 years later. This was a way to superimpose Christian values upon a rowdy pagan holiday. For most of Christian history Christmas was a minor holy day, celebrated by going to a special, extra-long night Mass. The children’s gifting holiday was Twelfth Night, which commemorates the presentation of the gifts of the Magi. It was indeed banned by many Protestant reformers as a Catholic accretion, as the more severe reformers wished to reinstitute the practices of the very earliest church. It regained favor and then ascendancy in the 19th century; most of what we think of as Christmassy is borrowed from Germanic paganism. Capitalism swallowed Christmas whole and we are left swimming in the brightly colored garbage it produced. Has nothing to do with Christianity at all really. Raised by atheists, there was not a single reference to the birth of Jesus in my full-trappings Christmas (I was in my 30’s before I grasped the fact that Easter was about the Resurrection, but I am unusually oblivious to the rest of the world). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=7)