# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/142 "2021-11-11T20:06:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It is Christian now because it’s been absorbed by a Christian religious ritual. The origin of it doesn’t control its modern meaning. There is no Christian ritual of putting up a Christmas tree that I know of. Not to say that Christians who put up Christmas trees don’t work the Baby Jesus into that – putting a creche under the tree perhaps, or an angel on the top symbolizing the angel who announced the coming of the savior to the shepherds in the gospel of Luke, but it is not in the slightest comparable to the cross, which is central to Christian symbolism and theology. There simply is no particular Christian meaning to a Christmas tree. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/143 "2021-11-11T20:12:24Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > The limited subset of jews I know all have a Christmas tree (all though the two Christmas parties I’ve been to at their house both had stars rather than angels as tree toppers, I assume to minimize the religious imagery) and do Santa. I know at least 1 who puts up lights. I’m obviously not certain if any of them are seen as going too far. We never saw a Jewish family with a Christmas tree growing up, and we were fairly observant but very Reformed Jews. The only fully Jewish household I’m familiar with today that has a Christmas tree is my brother, who’s Jewish wife was raised in Alabama and the assimilation pressures were much higher than in the northeast where we grew up. I know of lots of mixed marriages that have Christmas trees and menorahs (mine is one) and my wife sets up a creche, many Santas, and lights. I consider all of them to be trappings of Christmas. As such, I don’t partake (although I’m the one hanging the lights, apparently). There could be a day when Christmas loses it’s Christian trappings and meaning, but today is not that day. I’d argue that Halloween has reached that point, but not Christmas. It’s still one of the anchor points for religious worship as celebrated in the US, and while many celebrants don’t go to church, the holiday itself is wrapped in the illuminating glow of Christianity. I understand that many folks don’t look at Santa as a religious symbol, but to someone raised as non-Christian in the US I find it hard to see Santa as anything but Christian. It’s not holy, or sacred, or revered, but it’s Christian in origin, meaning, and intent to my eyes. To many of us, it will always have those connotations. Others many not see it, but for the majority (IMO) it is there. If you ask people “What religion is Santa associated with?” I would venture that the vast majority would say Christianity over “none”. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/144 "2021-11-11T20:33:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I would never tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t celebrate. I’m not even going to say that any group is wrong. I’m just pointing out why it seems a bit odd. When atheist are okay with it, we usually assume it is not really religious anymore. I think Christmas can be a (mostly) religious celebration yet still have many atheists celebrate it. They would call themselves cultural Christians when they do. For example, famous atheist Richard Dawkins has admitted to enjoying even the explicitly religious aspects of Christmas like singing in church because they are a cultural Christian. While Christmas may or may not be considered a secular holiday, it’s certainly a cultural one. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/145 "2021-11-11T21:18:42Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s still one of the anchor points for religious worship as celebrated in the US Indeed. There is a famous phrase “Easter and Christmas Christians” meaning folks who only come to church on those two big holidays of the year. Meaning a lot of people who aren’t all that religious believe that attending church is part of the holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/146 "2021-11-11T22:20:09Z")
I’ve always heard the phrase “C & E Christians”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/147 "2021-11-11T22:54:30Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > There is no Christian ritual of putting up a Christmas tree that I know of. I didn’t mean that there’s a specific religious ritual about the tree. I meant that it’s a part of the at-home celebrations of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth for so many Christian families that it’s become a part of that specific celebration. [ETA: It’s also a part of most public celebrations; including that many churches put up a tree.] ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/148 "2021-11-11T23:00:06Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > There simply is no particular Christian meaning to a Christmas tree. Is there a Jewish meaning to playing dreidel? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/149 "2021-11-11T23:39:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Is there a Jewish meaning to playing dreidel? You tell me, I’ve no idea. Although my father is Jewish, we were raised without the slightest whiff of religion of any kind. I think that is more unusual than I realized. We had a tree, hung stockings, and opened presents, and I had no idea it had anything to do with Christian practices. I thought Easter was about dying eggs and getting candy in a basket of fake grass. I’m totally serious. My Jewish heritage consisted of lox and bagels on Sunday. In toto. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/150 "2021-11-11T23:44:12Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > You tell me, I’ve no idea. No, it doesn’t really have any religious meaning. But it is undeniably associated with Hanukkah. Symbols don’t need to be sacred or the subject of worship to be religious in nature. Just like putting up a tree in December. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/151 "2021-11-11T23:55:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s also hard for me as a Christian when I would have no problem joining in any other celebration, even a more explicitly religious one, as long as I was invited to do so. I have to assume it’s a minority vs. majority thing. I find that hard to believe. For instance, although I don’t know much about Islam, I believe that one of their central prayers refers rather pointedly to “God, who reigns alone and has no son”. Would you feel comfortable joining a group of people in chanting that line? (again, please take that as a hypothetical, not as me claiming to have knowledge of what actual Muslims say or do). Traditionally, Jews recite three times a day a prayer calling for Christians to “instantly perish” and for God to “swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue” their Church. (OK, it doesn’t explicitly mention Christians, but refers generally to “all the heretics and all the wicked”; but that prayer was inserted into the liturgy in the second century, and everyone knew who it meant). Are you comfortable joining in that one if I were to invite you to so? How about in the far lengthier and more graphic excoriation of Christianity that was a prominent part of the Passover Seder until relatively recently? I can’t imagine that anyone who takes their religion seriously would be willing to explicitly renounce its basic tenets in public, even in the context of something like a “fun community singalong”. I personally would submit to death by torture rather than sing a single chorus of “O Come All Ye Faithful”. (I mean, I’m sure I actually wouldn’t, but I’m willing to say that I would on the internet, and that’s the important thing!) On another note, though I’m sure you know some very nice atheists who are among the “most enthusiastic” celebrants of Christmas, I’m going to need some data in order to buy that their attitude is remotely typical of atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/152 "2021-11-12T00:01:21Z")
Yes, that’s actually a very good analogy. Jews are not the only people who enjoy spinning tops, tops do not have any particular symbolic significance in Judaism, and there is no religious obligation for a Jew to play dreidel on Hanukkah. And yet, Jews do in fact play dreidel on Hanukkah, and therefore a dreidel is a Jewish thing, despite its lack of any actual religious significance. And by the same token, a Christmas tree is a Christian thing. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/153 "2021-11-12T00:34:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If someone told me Easter was a religious holiday, I’d agree with them. The degree of secularization (mostly around chocolate) And bunnies and eggs. And being named after an Anglo-Saxon goddess. Funny, Easter is probably the most important Christian holiday, but it’s named after a different god. Christmas is maybe the most secularized Christian holiday, but has “Christ” right there in the name. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/154 "2021-11-12T02:24:14Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > And being named after an Anglo-Saxon goddess. Funny, Easter is probably the most important Christian holiday, but it’s named after a different god. Only in English (and German, perhaps?) In just about every other language it derives from Pascha - Greek for passover. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/155 "2021-11-12T06:55:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m going to suggest that Jews have suffered more than “tree trinkets” at the hands of Christendom. That doesn’t make the comparison between slaves and trinkets any less odious. > [@](#): > > And yes, that IS relevant background to how people feel about the whole thing. I perfectly well understand where the chip on shoulders has come from. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Who the hell is doing that? Kimstu, in post #52 > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It is Christian now because it’s been absorbed by a Christian religious ritual Only if you grant the premise that it has been absorbed by a religious ritual, as opposed to taken up by a secular holiday… ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/156 "2021-11-12T06:56:11Z")
Is there actually anything being argued in this thread at this point? Don’t we all agree that Christmas is a traditional religious holiday that, in modern times, has accumulated a great many associated traditions which don’t have any obvious connection to actual Christianity? And that many people, including some non-Christians, enjoy celebrating it in ways devoid of Christian significance? And that for many other people, including many who also get deep into the trees-and-Santa aspect, it is indeed a day of deep religious significance? And that everyone ought to celebrate whatever they want in whatever fashion they choose, and not judge their neighbors for doing otherwise? I guess there’s a debate about whether those non-Christians who choose to avoid participating in Christmas celebrations are acting “reasonably” in doing so. Well…see the last sentence of the above paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/157 "2021-11-12T06:58:48Z")
The actual debate I thought I was participating in in the original thread is over whether it should be a federal holiday or not, as a contrast with Columbus Day. My argument is that it’s _sufficiently_ secularized to not count as a religious holiday for e.g. Establishment Clause purposes. > [@Telemark](#): > > I understand that many folks don’t look at Santa as a religious symbol, but to someone raised as non-Christian in the US I find it hard to see Santa as anything but Christian. It’s not holy, or sacred, or revered, but it’s Christian in origin, meaning, and intent to my eyes. To many of us, it will always have those connotations. Others many not see it, but for the majority (IMO) it is there. Not the majority. This argument might hold for e.g. the Dutch Sinterklaas, in his bishop’s mitre, but not for the Santa of American invention. He’s entirely divorced from Christian symbolism, and has an entire independent non-religious mythos attached to him. You may see him as Christian, I’m not denying your opinion, but your projecting it onto the majority rings hollow. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/158 "2021-11-12T07:17:03Z")
Well, nobody seems to really be addressing that issue. My position is that the vast majority of Americans don’t want to work on Christmas, so it should be a holiday. The possibility that many of them may attach religious significance to not wanting to work doesn’t make it an Establishment Clause issue. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/159 "2021-11-12T07:18:37Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But it is undeniably associated with Hanukkah. Symbols don’t need to be sacred or the subject of worship to be religious in nature. Yes, they do. You’re confusing Jewish, the culture, with Jewish, the religion. Dreidl would fall under the cultural Jewish side. So while it’s not religious, it is _Jewish_. Very few non-Jews play dreidl on Hannukah (when not with Jews), I’m sure. Whereas atheists and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and even my New Age brother put up Christmas trees. They’re not a uniquely Christian culture element, they’re part of the general, secular Christmas holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/160 "2021-11-12T07:53:18Z")
So your argument is that there is no connection whatever between Sinterklaas and Santa Claus, despite the fact that they have almost the same name and are connected with the same holiday? There’s no shared cultural tradition there whatsoever, and any resemblance of the Christian Sinterklaas to the robustly atheistic Santa Claus is purely coincidental? The reason people celebrate Christmas is because their families have a tradition of celebrating Christmas, and even if they don’t think of it as religious, it’s certain that their ancestors did. In many families and communities, the celebrations have evolved away from explicitly religious content, but it’s still rooted in Christian European culture. Americans who identify with other cultures tend to see that more clearly than the culturally Christian secularists who make up much of the modern American population, and to have problems with Christmas being held up as something that all Americans should feel comfortable celebrating, akin to Thanksgiving or the Fourth of July. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/161 "2021-11-12T08:05:44Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > So your argument is that there is no connection whatever between Sinterklaas and Santa Claus No. My argument is the connection is restricted to origin, and subsequent development of Santa has been entirely secular. That Santa is not Christian in the “meaning, and intent” parts of **Telemark** ’s trifecta. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The reason people celebrate Christmas is because their families have a tradition of celebrating Christmas, and even if they don’t think of it as religious, it’s certain that their ancestors did. I That doesn’t count for e.g. the Japanese, but I broadly agree. That has no real bearing on if its celebration is largely religious _now_, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=9)