# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/162 "2021-11-12T08:08:27Z")
There’s no confusion; religion is part of culture, albeit in most quarters an increasingly less significant part. Dreidel is not intrinsically religious, but it is associated with a religious holiday. Even if there are no prayers recited at a Hanukkah gathering of ham-eating Jewish atheists, they still wouldn’t be partying together on that particular night if their ancestors hadn’t attached religious significance to doing so. it is true that atheists, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists put up Christmas trees, but it is equally true that _other_ atheists, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists would never dream of doing such a thing. You seem to be having a hard time crediting the idea that other people’s lived experience may differ from that of the people you know personally. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/163 "2021-11-12T08:25:33Z")
I don’t even know what’s going on with the Japanese…whole other thread. I would certainly concede that the majority of Americans do celebrate Christmas in ways that involve little or no overt Christian theologizing. Those who insist on saturating their holiday with religiosity and those who refuse to participate at all due to religious scruples are both minorities. But that doesn’t mean their opinions about what the holiday “really” means are somehow objectively wrong, they’re just minority opinions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/164 "2021-11-12T08:37:53Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Even if there are no prayers recited at a Hanukkah gathering of ham-eating Jewish atheists, they still wouldn’t be partying together on that particular night if their ancestors hadn’t attached religious significance to doing so. That doesn’t make their current practice a religious one, even if it takes place in a religious holiday (and for those atheist Jews, only religious _in origin_.) I’m picking up that when some people here say “religious holiday”, they mean “religious in origin”, which I’ve been specifically pointing out is not what I’m arguing against. But when people think modern Western St Valentine’s Day is a religious holiday, there’s obviously too vast a gulf to cross, there. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > it is true that atheists, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists put up Christmas trees, but it is equally true that _other_ atheists, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists would never dream of doing such a thing. And also many Christians. Hence Christmas trees aren’t a Christian thing. They’re just a Christmas thing. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > You seem to be having a hard time crediting the idea that other people’s lived experience may differ from that of the people you know personally. No, I’m well aware that some people’s experiences differ. What I’m disagreeing with is whether _those_ people’s perceptions actually decide the truth of the matter of the degree of secularization of Christmas, rather than what we actually _see_ happening. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/165 "2021-11-12T08:43:58Z")
And I am arguing that you can’t meaningfully discuss the “degree of secularization of Christmas” in a vacuum; it depends on who you’re spending it with. There are majority and minority perspectives, but there is no objective “truth of the matter”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/166 "2021-11-12T08:45:33Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But that doesn’t mean their opinions about what the holiday “really” means are somehow objectively wrong, they’re just minority opinions. Their opinions are their opinions, and opinions are subjective. So in that sense they’re not “wrong”. But when they then say _other_ non-religious people giving _their_ opinions are “Christsplaining”, they’re closer to the “can be ignored” end of the spectrum than the “have to be accorded equal weight in a debate” end. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/167 "2021-11-12T08:48:02Z")
Agreed there’s no objective truth here, but to circle back to the original debate - when it comes time to decide if the US as a whole should get a day off, should the minority cultural outlier perspectives be the determinant, when secular Christmas neither picks their pocket nor breaks their leg? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/168 "2021-11-12T08:57:01Z")
No, they shouldn’t. I’ve said repeatedly that I have no problem with Christmas being a Federal holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/169 "2021-11-12T09:05:48Z")
Acknowledging the reality that a huge part of the population wants to take the day off, even if their motivations for doing so are _entirely_ religious, doesn’t constitute a violation of the Establishment Clause. If Christmas weren’t a Federal holiday, almost all private businesses would still close, almost all Federal workers would burn a sick day, the number of workers who would show up would be too few to get anything done; what’s the upside here? Likewise I have no problem with non-Christian religious holidays being officially recognized in those few American jurisdictions where they are widely observed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/170 "2021-11-12T09:20:07Z")
I know, it wasn’t specifically you I was referencing. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/171 "2021-11-12T12:51:02Z")
I don’t think anyone in this thread was arguing against Christmas being a federal holiday. I certainly wasn’t. Most of the country wants to take it off from work, and staffing that day would be a bitch if it weren’t a holiday. My town gives kids Yom Kippur off from school because they couldn’t hire enough teachers that day. No one argues that Yom Kippur isn’t a religious holiday. But it’s practical to close the schools. They shut the schools on Good Friday in the same decision. A third of the students were taking Good Friday off, and that was also an administrative nuisance. No one claimed that Good Friday wasn’t a religious holiday, either. I think either claim would have been offensive, frankly. Christmas is also a religious holiday, albeit one that has popular secular elements taken up by many non-Christians. There’s quite a lot of Christianity pushed on non-Christians in the US during the “Christmas season”, and it goes well beyond trinkets. It’s awkward to reject Christianity openly when Christianity is on parade. @MrDibble , you really do sound like someone talking about their “southern heritage” and the historical importance of statues of confederate heroes. Yes, minorities often develop a chip on their shoulder. I can’t imagine why that might be. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/172 "2021-11-12T13:00:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think anyone in this thread was arguing against Christmas being a federal holiday. Incorrect: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What I’ve said, quite clearly, is that I don’t think it should be a Federal holiday ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/173 "2021-11-12T13:27:11Z")
Okay, i sit corrected. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/174 "2021-11-12T13:37:40Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Well, that’s dumb. The only thing that’s Christian about a tree is the fact that it was popularized in a Christian country (Germany, and then England via German-ancestry monarchs). It’s about as Christian as the Krampus. But we humans rarely let facts get in the way of our decisions. Not sure I agree with this. The tree was popularised as a decoration for Christmas at a time when there was no doubt whatsoever about the Christian nature of the festival, so, as such, it takes on Christian overtones, even if it doesn’t have an angel on top, or began its life as a decoration because pagans looked for hope in evergreens in winter. I’ve read pretty much the whole thread - let’s not lose sight of the fact that the star as a tree topper is also a Christian symbol (North Star) and also Santa (St Nicholas). Strikes me that the pro-secular crowd are doing a lot of hand waving in this thread. I’m atheist, as were my parents, though culturally Christian. I have no problem wrapping my head around the fact that, whilst the majority of my celebration of Christmas is entirely secular, that it is still a Christian festival wrapped in Christian symbolism (eg angels on trees) and practice (eg hymn singing). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/175 "2021-11-12T13:41:36Z")
There are obviously two forms of Christmas. The traditional, Christian Christmas has all the religious elements associated with Christmas. This is not allowed in our school district. However, we do celebrate the secular form of Christmas without ever having any complaints, and that’s with Christmas trees, Santa, etc. I can’t support shoving my religion down people’s throats by planting a manger scene on government property. Their justification is that this is a Christian nation. No, it is not, it is a nation of religious freedom guaranteed by a separation of Church and State. I have to wonder how they would feel if a group of Muslims showed up on the White House lawn to celebrate **Ramadan**. Well, no, I know exactly how they feel and react. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/176 "2021-11-12T14:01:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That doesn’t make the comparison between slaves and trinkets any less odious. That comparison doesn’t exist outside your own mind. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/177 "2021-11-12T14:03:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whereas atheists and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and even my New Age brother put up Christmas trees. That has not been my experience. Like, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/178 "2021-11-12T14:05:47Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What I’ve said, quite clearly, is that I don’t think it should be a Federal holiday (which also would in no way be ‘taking it away’), but that I acknowledge it’s entirely impractical to try to make that change; for exactly the reason that it would get people for whom it is a religious holiday up in arms. Probably some of them literally. The full quote says exactly the opposite of what you say it does. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/179 "2021-11-12T14:45:43Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > However, we do celebrate the secular form of Christmas without ever having any complaints, and that’s with Christmas trees, Santa, etc. That would never have been allowed in our school district; Santa was clearly Christian. He certainly wouldn’t have been seen as secular by the Jews in the district. A decorated tree would have been borderline. You’d only have Santa if it was celebrating all the religious holidays of the season - so it would have been displayed with other religious symbols like a menorah. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/180 "2021-11-12T15:09:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > @MrDibble , you really do sound like someone talking about their “southern heritage” and the historical importance of statues of confederate heroes. Again with this dumb comparison. Repeating it isn’t going to have it make any more sense. I’m not the one talking about what Christmas was and its importance, I’m the one talking about what it is _now_. Confederate statues are odious because of what they _still_ represent, not just for their history. They aren’t comparable to a glittery tree topper. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/181 "2021-11-12T15:13:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Confederate statues are odious because of what they _still_ represent, not just for their history. They aren’t comparable to a glittery tree topper. That’s what they represent TO YOU. A southern heritage type will argue that no, they actually represent southern pride. You would not agree with that person. Well, TO YOU, a Christmas tree represents only commercialism. To people who don’t have your culturally Christian perspective, a Christmas tree 100% represents Christianity. You steadfastly insisting everyone else is wrong doesn’t make you any more convincing than the Southern Heritage guy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=10)