# Religious types who absolve themselves of responsibility for their problems. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991 "2008-04-04T22:13:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/21 "2008-04-05T00:15:49Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] The idea that Christianity can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean is ridiculous. [/quote] And was some objective means of determining who qualifies as a Real Christian, and someone who only calls him/herself a Christian invented when I wasn’t looking ? [QUOTE=mswas] Free Will and personal responsibility are generally shared amongst the mainstream. Sure you can probably find some predestination cult out there calling themselves Christian. [/quote] Like Calvinism ? Who gets to define what qualfies as a “cult”, and not Real Christianity[sup]TM[/sup] ? You ? And what about such obscure :rolleyes: concepts as Original Sin ? How does that qualify as personal responsibility ? [QUOTE=mswas] It’s simply not worth the time of arguing that Christianity means whatever you want to think it means. Differences in doctrine between sects do not justify that idea. ‘It’s all imaginary BS anyway.’, is not a valid argument. [/QUOTE] I didn’t argue that. And your “You are not WORTHY to argue with the mighty **mswas**!” isn’t much of an argument, no matter how often you pull it out. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/22 "2008-04-05T00:16:47Z")
What has often irritated me are people (of whatever religion) who shrug off bad things as “It must have been God’s will” as if there is no use trying to make things better. In times past there were people who opposed the use of anesthesia, vaccines and the like on the grounds that to relieve suffering because it must have been God’s will for people to suffer. Of course, assuming there is a God who is personally involved with humanity, he also gave us brains to solve problems with! I recall hearing about a family who had a veritable litter of fetuses in utero, and the medical experts advised “reducing” the pregnancy in order to increase the chances of there being any viable births at all. The couple declined, stating something about God gave us all these babies for a reason… :dubious: Excuse me, it was \*the fertility drugs that you took \* that gave you all those babies-to-be! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/23 "2008-04-05T00:18:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I didn’t argue that. And your “You are not WORTHY to argue with the mighty **mswas**!” isn’t much of an argument, no matter how often you pull it out. [/QUOTE] See this is exactly why arguing with you is not worthwhile. I tell you I’m not going to argue with you, and you say, “It’s not much of an argument.”, as though it’s some sort of insight. Yeah, someone refusing to argue with you is by definition not putting up much of an argument. It’s that sort of brilliance that has me stunned in your presence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/24 "2008-04-05T00:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] See this is exactly why arguing with you is not worthwhile. I tell you I’m not going to argue with you, and you say, “It’s not much of an argument.”, as though it’s some sort of insight. [/QUOTE] No, it’s a criticism. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/25 "2008-04-05T00:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, it’s a criticism. [/QUOTE] _sigh_ I know. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/26 "2008-04-05T00:22:43Z")
Isn’t this sort of thing a natural consequence, once one starts to believe deities are taking a personal interest in one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/27 "2008-04-05T00:23:00Z")
I’ll humor you for a moment. Redemption is in a person’s hands. Original Sin was out of their hands. One cannot escape the sins of their parents but they do have the power to be redeemed from them, or so the doctrine goes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/28 "2008-04-05T00:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Isn’t this sort of thing a natural consequence, once one starts to believe deities are taking a personal interest in one’s life. [/QUOTE] How is it different from materialists who believe that everything is random? That life is something that happens to them, beyond their control. For the hard of thinking, no I am not implying that all materialists believe this. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/29 "2008-04-05T00:24:55Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Heh, this is why discussing Christianity with atheists is absolutely pointless. Well, with atheists here on the dope. I know a few on other boards who wouldn’t nitpick at such basic premises. [/QUOTE] I apologise for assuming you had information to back up your assumptions. I generally tend to hold the Christians on this board to that standard, and I imagine merely talking to you alone won’t change that. The irony of you sidestepping a potential hint at overgeneralising by overgeneralising isn’t lost on me, though. Impressive. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/30 "2008-04-05T00:26:18Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Heh, this is why discussing Christianity with atheists is absolutely pointless. Well, with atheists here on the dope. I know a few on other boards who wouldn’t nitpick at such basic premises. [/QUOTE] And by “basic premise” you mean “your own, bald, unsupported assertion”. Yes, aren’t we atheists pesky, with our way of not automatically assuming that everything you say is axiomatically true and correct. And, do you get some sort of perverse pleasure out of arguing that you’re too cool to argue with? Because it seems like a bloody great waste of time and energy to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/31 "2008-04-05T00:30:20Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] How is it different from materialists who believe that everything is random? [/quote] Oh, in every way imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/32 "2008-04-05T00:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I apologise for assuming you had information to back up your assumptions. I generally tend to hold the Christians on this board to that standard, and I imagine merely talking to you alone won’t change that. The irony of you sidestepping a potential hint at overgeneralising by overgeneralising isn’t lost on me, though. Impressive. [/QUOTE] There are a few bad apples that poison the well. It’s hard to wade through those who are merely being antagonistic and those who are not. > [@](#): > > “But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God” (Ephesians 5:3-5, NIV; compare Colossians 3:5-10). [QUOTE=Colossians 3:5] Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. [/QUOTE] That sounds like admonishment to be morally responsible to me. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/33 "2008-04-05T00:35:58Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Oh, in every way imaginable. [/QUOTE] Predestination is predestination. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/34 "2008-04-05T00:36:24Z")
And then there are those who say something along these lines: “Oh, we don’t have to worry about pollution, the economy, starving people, or war, because we’re going to be Raptured at any second.” Apparently, some of these folks have let themselves off the hook completely since they figure they won’t be here much longer. Whatever happened to what Jesus said about visiting the lonely, tending the sick, helping the poor, and so on? Just gotta ask. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/35 "2008-04-05T00:39:37Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Predestination is predestination. [/QUOTE] Except when it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/36 "2008-04-05T00:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=vivalostwages] And then there are those who say something along these lines: “Oh, we don’t have to worry about pollution, the economy, starving people, or war, because we’re going to be Raptured at any second.” Apparently, some of these folks have let themselves off the hook completely since they figure they won’t be here much longer. Whatever happened to what Jesus said about visiting the lonely, tending the sick, helping the poor, and so on? Just gotta ask. [/QUOTE] Bible quotes on stewardship: > [@](#): > > Genesis 1:26. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, and let them rule > over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the > earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” > Lev. 25:23-24. The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. > Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the > redemption of the land. > Ezekiel 34:2-4. Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of > themselves! Should not the shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, > clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you did > not take care of the flock! You have not strengthened the weak or healed the > sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched > for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. > Ezekiel 34:10. 0 shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. This is what the > sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable > for my flock. > Ezekiel 34:17-18. As for you, my flock… Is it not enough for you to feed on > good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is > it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with > your feet? > Isaiah 24:4-6. The earth dries up and withers, the world languished and > withers, the exalted of the earth languish. The earth lies under its inhabitants; > for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, and broken the > everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must > bear their guilt. > Jer. 2:7. I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But > you came and defiled my land and you made my inheritance detestable. > Luke 16:2,10,13. And he called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about > you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward. > He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is > unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous in much. You cannot serve both > God and mammon. > James 5:5. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton > pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. > Mark 4:19. …and the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches and > the desires for other things enter in and choke the word and it becomes > unfruitful. > Revelation 11:18. The nations were angry and your wrath has come. The time > has come for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those > who reverence your name, both small and great - and for destroying those who > destroy the earth. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/37 "2008-04-05T00:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Predestination is predestination. [/QUOTE] And if they’re “materialists who believe that everything is random”, there certainly isn’t any predestination going on. Not that predestination is a significant issue to materialists anyway. (Not that this sidetrack is relevent to this _thread_, either; it was nothing more than a worthless ad hominem to start with.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/38 "2008-04-05T00:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] There are a few bad apples that poison the well. It’s hard to wade through those who are merely being antagonistic and those who are not. [/quote] Then stick with the only generalisation that tends to work - don’t do it. 😉 > [@](#): > > That sounds like admonishment to be morally responsible to me. Indeed it does. To you. The amount of people, Christians and otherwise, who have read the Bible and see it in entirely different lights, even just single books, passages, or lines, and come out with entirely different views of what it says, means i’m not really tended to take one person’s impression of a Biblical quote as sufficient evidence to base an opinion of the entirety of Christian thought on. Add onto that that you can’t just show that personal responsibility is believed in as part of Christianity, but personal responsibility _to that extent_. Take AA; as I understand that, accepting that you can’t give up alcohol on your own but only with the aid of a higher power is it possible is a significant point. That higher power isn’t always God, but I would imagine that all Christians who go to AA at the very least hold a view of personal responsibility that is in opposition to what you get out of that quote, though I imagine they do not deny personal responsibility entirely. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/39 "2008-04-05T00:43:56Z")
**Revenant Threshold** Asking God for help in fulfilling one’s responsibility is not abdicating responsibility. At least I don’t see how it is. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991/40 "2008-04-05T00:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Revenant Threshold** Asking God for help in fulfilling one’s responsibility is not abdicating responsibility. At least I don’t see how it is. [/QUOTE] You’re correct, but it’s not just a matter of asking for help, but asking for required help - that is, the point is not just asking for aid, but admitting that you cannot do it alone, and that the help is _required._ > [@](#): > > 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. > 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. > 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. The first three steps. Certainly there is a lot expected of the people themselves, but the point of it is that you’re giving up personal responsibility, essentially, and handing yourself over to a wiser governor of you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-types-who-absolve-themselves-of-responsibility-for-their-problems/443991.md?page=3)