# Religous people are literally "immature" (not a flame) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891 "2002-12-25T21:24:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fauxpas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e480ec/32.png) [@fauxpas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fauxpas)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/41 "2002-12-26T10:21:48Z")
Libeterian…im in awe…either your a fellow christian…or we both have the same beliefs of freedom…thank you… ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/42 "2002-12-26T11:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrfoi \* > **Uh, this is the most squishy of all your arguments. You clearly wish my statements were not true and your ability to ignore logic is typical of someone able to be religious. I refer you to any news report of N. Ireland and the “Catholics vs. Protestants” issue will be cited as the cause for strife.** Er, did you look at UDS’s location before posting this? The media portrayal of the Northern Ireland conflict, boiling it down to the most simplistic terms possible, is not an accurate reflection of the nature of the conflict. It is not about “Catholics vs. Protestants” but about nationalists vs. unionists. Please do some research on the subject before using it to support your argument - and especially before embarrassing yourself further by claiming that what you read in the papers makes you more of an expert than those of us who actually live in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/43 "2002-12-26T14:03:45Z")
According to the OP and its followups, since I am religious, I must be either ignorant or cowardly or immature, etc. I always appreciate efforts to reinforce the virtue of humility, so thank you very much. The original post and its followups and concurrent opinions are incorrect. Each of us has many human qualities- among them intelligence, maturity, courage, and faith. To single out faith and say that possessing this quality means you lack in the others simply does not follow. Child abuse by priests in no way invalidates Catholicism or Christianity or religion in general. These acts were perpetrated by sick individuals, and if the priesthood were not availbable to them they could have become teachers to put themselves in the same position. To answer rampisad, who challenges us to prove the existence of a Supreme Being- consider the Shroud of Turin. It has been known since the Middle Ages. To disprove God, make a duplicate of the Shroud. Or figure out how someone did it centuries ago. And figure out how that someone knew enough to insert images of pollen grains native only to the Jerusalem area. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/44 "2002-12-26T14:20:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MSU 1978 \* > \*\*To answer rampisad, who challenges us to prove the existence of a Supreme Being- consider the Shroud of Turin. It has been known since the Middle Ages. To disprove God, make a duplicate of the Shroud. Or figure out how someone did it centuries ago. And figure out how that someone knew enough to insert images of pollen grains native only to the Jerusalem area. \*\* Doesn’t quite qualify as evidence for the existence of the Christian God though, does it? Even if we assume that there is absolutely no scientific answer to the questions about the Shroud, that God made it is still an unfair assumption. It may have been a wizard or a time-traveller or an alien, or whatever. Even if we prove the existence of something we cannot explain, that doesn’t mean God exists. I say we stick with rampisad, give up trying to prove or disprove God’s existence, and get on with eradicating ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/45 "2002-12-26T14:56:15Z")
MSU 1978 > [@](#): > > To answer rampisad, who challenges us to prove the existence of a Supreme Being … With respect, I did no such thing. I posed two questions - either _prove_ there is a Supreme Being, or _prove_ there isn’t. Since neither argument is capable of proof, you are holding on to some form of **faith** whether you are religious or not. Therefore for members of one faith to call others “immature” or “schizophrenic” is neither sustainable nor logical, but is instead bigotry. Again with respect, if you hold that the shroud represents **proof** , then by definition you cannot call yourself a man of **faith**. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/46 "2002-12-26T15:09:29Z")
Libertarian, I tip my hat to you. I was considering responding to this thread, but for now, you’ve said all I might have intended to and more…not to mention more politely as well. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/47 "2002-12-26T15:15:20Z")
What **Libertarian** said. And also, please, once more: “religion” and “mythology” are NOT one and the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/48 "2002-12-26T15:23:13Z")
Returning to this thread after a night’s sleep, I see that my own post and **mrfoi** ’s response are now well up the page. I was going to respond further to **mrfoi** , but the discussion has moved on a lot since them and I don’t think it would be helpful. And on the general question I cannot improve on what **Libertarian** has said. I doubt if anybody can. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/49 "2002-12-26T15:27:25Z")
Question: Why did someone with the reasoning level of Issac Newton decided to made up a myth of how a fallen apple inspired him to work on the principles of gravity? He must have been a very ‘immature, schisophrenic’ cad. Issac Asimov wrote of robot-run worlds, probably an out-there future mythology if there ever was one. Was he ‘immature’ as well, for daring to prophesy this way? Or is storytelling is an intrinsic part of reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/50 "2002-12-26T15:54:07Z")
The mathmetician Henri Poincare wrote: > [@](#): > > To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. You might take a few moments, **mrfoi** , to reflect upon what that statement implies about maturity – intellectually, and otherwise. You might also bookmark this thread and consider each of the replies carefully, particularly **Libertarian** ’s masterpiece of Rhetoric. I use that word in its classical sense. It is a valid and effective way of writing and speaking which you might find useful. Here is a [guide](http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm) to Rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/51 "2002-12-26T17:42:17Z")
rampisad- I agree with your assertion that neither the existence of God nor the lack of God’s existence can be proven. I cannot refute the statement- it is indeed a matter of faith. But for me, the Shroud is a relic that provides some physical evidence of the resurrection of Christ. The fact that it cannot be reproduced or its creation scientifically explained is, in my opinion, further evidence of its authenticity. In the end, you are absolutely correct in that matters of faith cannot be logically proven. I will stand by my statement that possession of faith does not preclude the presence of other fine human qualities such as intelligence, maturity, and courage. Priceguy- you are correct and I agree with you to a point. It does not prove the existence of the Christian God, but I have to maintain that it is indeed evidence. You can certainly question its authenticity or doubt that it leads to an inescapable conclusion, but it is physical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/52 "2002-12-26T17:53:23Z")
I don’t think it’s particularly immature to believe that there might be _some_ sort of higher intelligence out there, as opposed to ruling it out altogether, but when folks move beyond religion’s most basic assertion and start making more specific claims of divine intervention that the question of immaturity can arise. When good things happen to good, religious people, they often credit it to God rewarding them or answering their prayers, likewise when bad things happen to people who have turned away from the faith, God is punishing them. But when bad things happen to good people, the rationalize either that God is “testing” them or that Satan is “counter attacking” them for becoming Christians. There is always a perfectly rational explanation for any given event in question (if only all the facts can be known) and coincidences happen all the time, but people with a religious worldview insist on seeing all fortune and misfortune as supernatural in origin. Even if all the facts are available in explaining the cause-and-effect, they still fall back on the old saw, “God works in mysterious ways”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/53 "2002-12-26T17:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > But for me, the Shroud is a relic that provides some physical evidence of the resurrection of Christ. The fact that it cannot be reproduced or its creation scientifically explained is, in my opinion, further evidence of its authenticity. The Shroud of Turin is a [fourteenth century forgery.](http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html) This has been proven conclusively through carbon dating. High-tech light microscopy shows that it was painted with ordinary medievel pigments. It actually is fairly easy to reproduce by a number of different methods. Even the Catholic Church has now publicly admitted that they believe the Shroud is a forgery. I thought this whole Shroud controversy had been put to rest in the eighties. Want to talk about bleeding statues now, or maybe the visions of Fatima? ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/54 "2002-12-26T18:35:52Z")
Diogenes, there are certainly differing views on the Shroud. [Here’s](http://shroudforum.com/dearjohn.pdf) an interesting link. If it is a forgery, it is certainly brilliant. Capturing the pollen grains native to the Jerusalem area was a stroke of genius. But the carbon dating is subject to debate. The Shroud was host to some bacteria and fungi that had lived on it for some centuries. The carbon dating could have captured some of that plant material and given a false result. [Here](http://www.uthscsa.edu/mission/spring96/shroud.htm) is a link for another view on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/55 "2002-12-26T19:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > And also, please, once more: “religion” and “mythology” are NOT one and the same thing. Right. Religion can best be described as a combination of mythology and superstition. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/56 "2002-12-26T19:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*Right. Religion can best be described as a combination of mythology and superstition. \*\* Right. Atheism can best be described as a combination of desolation and myopia. ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/57 "2002-12-26T20:46:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrfoi \* > \*\* > > No christianity=no priests=no priests abusing kids. > > \*\* I was gonna post a reply to this little gem of logic, but **Libertarian** said it all with that fantastic piece of writing. Well done, **Libertarian**. I’m very much the agnostic in my views, but if I have a belief in anything Tolerance is at the top of my list. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/58 "2002-12-26T20:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Atheism can best be described as a combination of desolation and myopia. No argument there. I ain’t an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/59 "2002-12-26T21:07:26Z")
Right. You’re a greased cat. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891/60 "2002-12-26T21:42:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by MSU 1978_ > Diogenes, there are certainly differing views on the Shroud. Here’s an interesting link. > > If it is a forgery, it is certainly brilliant. Capturing the pollen grains native to the Jerusalem area was a stroke of genius. But the carbon dating is subject to debate. The Shroud was host to some bacteria and fungi that had lived on it for some centuries. The carbon dating could have captured some of that plant material and given a false result. Here is a link for another view on the matter.\*\* There are no Jerusalem pollens on the shroud. This was an assertion proffered by a criminologist named Max Frei. Frei’s claims were proven fraudulent after scientists reviewed his video-taped “research” in 1983. The theory of microbal contamination skewing the radiocarbon dating is also fallacious. In order to throw off the results by thirteen hundred years, the amount of microbal material required would be twice the weight of the shroud itself. The painting itself is not particularly brilliant or even unusual for its time. It was done in the medievel brisaille style and can be rather easily reproduced using only those materials which were available in the fourteenth century. The branch of shroud research which still argues for authenticity is on a par with creationism or ufology. They are a fringe element in the field, basically they are agenda driven Christians who see what they want to see and don’t let facts get in their way. [Scientific answers to pro-authenticity arguments](http://www.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcourse/lost/shroudpage.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religous-people-are-literally-immature-not-a-flame/144891.md?page=4)