# Remberance of things past - computer division **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689 "2012-09-24T17:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/61 "2012-09-26T16:29:41Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It is a petabyte which is well within range for larger server clusters already. Next is an exabyte then zettabyte then yottabyte… xenottabyte, shilentnobyte, and then domegemegrottebyte which will eventually enable us to store enough data to run at least the whole galaxy. Wow, that’s a lottabytes. > [@TruCelt](#): > > The first computer I sold was a dual-floppy system. The first mass storage (if you don’t count a Penny’s cassette deck) I ever bought (to go with an IMSAI 8080) was a Micropolis dual-floppy, external drive unit with a S-100 interface card. 5", hard-sector (16 holes), single sided disks that each stored 360K, large for the times. It cost me $1800. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/62 "2012-09-26T19:24:18Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > . . . > We held a special sales brainstorming session to figure out what kinds of businesses might have a use for our new 80 megabyte hard drives. (Which were the size of a modern mini-tower.) > > . . . Priam, That was the company. I wonder whatever happened to them? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Woo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dr.Woo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Woo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/63 "2012-09-26T21:03:56Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > I grew up using an Apple IIe. My dad was a computer hobbyist and we used it for games, educational stuff and whatnot. > > I still have a bunch of Apple II equipment in storage. How likely it it to still work? Are any of the floppies likely to work? It’s all unorganized and covered in dust, and some of it is in parts. I often think of taking it out, testing it and possibly selling whatever works, but I figure half the stuff probably won’t work and that will make it impossible to test or operate the other half. > > Among other things, there is a Corvus 20MB hard drive that’s as big as a desktop computer. Oh man, I remember going with my employer to Corvus one evening to make a deal with someone there on a 20MB hard drive. I looked at that thing like it was God. Twenty bleeping MEG, man! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/64 "2012-09-26T21:35:32Z")
> [@VunderBob](#): > > Getting out of school, I became a VAX/PDP demigod, and still carry a torch for them. I can also claim having to boot a PDP-11/45 from a paper tape and a manually entered bootloader. What a pain in the ass that was. At Illinois we had 2 11/20s - one for teaching assembly language programming had the boot sequence on a ROM so you just had to enter the start address, the other, for research, required you to load the whole boot routine. Quite frequently the kids would call me at home in the middle of the night (well 10 am actually, same thing) for help in rebooting. I had the start address memorized. It was also on the console, but sometimes they were nervous. We had DEC Tape for those machines - I still have 3 rolls with some of my old programs on them. I hope there is a reader in the Computer Museum. ---
**Author:** ![phxjcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phxjcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phxjcc)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/65 "2012-09-28T21:33:52Z")
I started on 8080 STD Bus Micros circa 1979. 2 5 1/2" SS/SD floppy drives running CP/M (Digital Research). Z80 was astoundingly faster because you could do block move instructions via a single assembler statement. Every month I would perform PM on the drives by aligning the index/read/write on the drive controller card by using an oscilloscope. If we did not do this, then the disk written on Computer A could not be read by Computer B, etc. The index-to-start-of-data was adjustable via a _pot_ on the drive controller card. This was before a single-unit drive-controller-chip was ubiquitous. It was all RCL circuitry and the drive heads were so crappy and bounced all over the place and heads came loose on the drives. Anyone remember building circuit boards via _ **wire wrapping** _? We only needed ~ 10 of each board, so actually having them made into a PCB was cost prohibitive. All of our embedded logic fit on an 8K EEPROM, which I designed and built (ok, wire wrapped). All of this magic, for $988/month gross pay. Went from there to working on mini systems that we were booting by paper tape, loading by reel-to-reel mag tape. And my geek friends laughed at me when I told them we were using _ **core memory** _ with battery back-up on these systems. Why?–because when they crashed during a power outage, you did not have to reload the systems. Part of a Software QA test for a full screen 3270 emulator: 1. fill screen with characters (1920: 24x80) 2. move cursor to upper left hand corner 3. press \ key and wedge a matchbook into the keyboard to hold it down If computer does not crash, your editor passed this test. Most failed. ---
**Author:** ![phxjcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phxjcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phxjcc)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/66 "2012-09-28T21:47:52Z")
Passed edit time…should be All of our embedded logic fit on an 8K EEPROM, which I designed and built (ok, wire wrapped) an EEPROM programmer. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/67 "2012-09-28T21:52:08Z")
when amber monochrome monitors came out, it was so easy on the eyes. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/68 "2012-09-28T23:07:45Z")
Just out of curiosity… and I know that it wouldn’t be actually possible in any realistic sense… but if there were any way to take a modern day video game and convert the code into punch cards, what would the mass of the punch cards be? Allow for as much hand-waving as necessary, please. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/69 "2012-09-28T23:31:31Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Just out of curiosity… and I know that it wouldn’t be actually possible in any realistic sense… but if there were any way to take a modern day video game and convert the code into punch cards, what would the mass of the punch cards be? > > Allow for as much hand-waving as necessary, please. No, it possible even in realistic sense with the right hardware. Binary is binary no matter what form it is stored in after all. The word I think you meant was ‘practical’. A punch card holds 112.5 bytes per card. It would take between 9 and 10 million of them to store a gigabyte. You will have to decide what you consider to be a modern game. Some of them require 5 gigabytes or more of storage. A punchcard is about the thickness of an index card and there are usually about 100 of those to an inch. If you punchcards in a stack to store 5 gigabytes, it would be between 7 and 8 miles high. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/70 "2012-09-29T00:55:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > A punch card holds 112.5 bytes per card. Although there were many formats for cards, and theoretically you could punch any number of holes in any number of positions in any shape and size, the standard IBM card used in the 1960’s was 80 columns, and I think 80 characters/bytes would be a more reasonable value per card. This makes your estimate about 40% too generous. Even 80 columns assumes an 8-bit character per column, and a common use was 6 or 7-bits (EBCDIC or ASCII). ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/71 "2012-09-29T00:55:53Z")
> [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > Oh yeah, does anybody remember the old Osborne portable computer? It was about as big as a breadbox and weighed a ton, but it was the first “laptop.” It was pretty cool, but did not last long. Probably because back then, nobody could envision any use for such a thing. I was initially quite popular (or what passed for popular in the early days of microcomputing), briefly turning Adam Osborne and Lee Felsenstein (the designer) into paper millionaires. It was very popular upon release for traveling businessmen, and ran the then-dominant CP/M operating system. However, Felsenstein was given system requirements (luggable, designed to take a beating in cargo holds or from being dropped), specs (bare minimum to run CP/M and basic business softs), and a short turn around time, with the end result being a quick-and-dirty bare-minimum system that got the job done and could very easily be improved upon. The company managed to shoot itself in the foot. They couldn’t keep up with initial demand, and initial production was a bit shoddy. They then announced more powerful follow-up systems that addressed the original’s design shortcomings (never delivered). So, after the early adopters, many interested in the portable concept decided to wait for production problems to be ironed out and/or for the promised improved systems to be released. Kaypro caught Osborne flatfooted and came out with the Kaypro II which improved on the Felsenstein design (the ad reprinted at the bottom of [this page](http://www.computercloset.org/Kaypro2.htm) was a shot across Osborne’s bow) and also ran CP/M; those frustrated with the Osborne 1 upgraded to the Kaypro II, and people who had been waiting for the improved Osbornes now had an alternative. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/72 "2012-09-29T01:07:16Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > No, it possible even in realistic sense with the right hardware. Binary is binary no matter what form it is stored in after all. The word I think you meant was ‘practical’. > > A punch card holds 112.5 bytes per card. It would take between 9 and 10 million of them to store a gigabyte. You will have to decide what you consider to be a modern game. Some of them require 5 gigabytes or more of storage. A punchcard is about the thickness of an index card and there are usually about 100 of those to an inch. If you punchcards in a stack to store 5 gigabytes, it would be between 7 and 8 miles high. Wouldn’t THAT be fun to debug? Also, is it true that debugging comes from the idea that bugs would actually get jammed into the holes in punch cards and ruin the program? Thanks for indulging me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/73 "2012-09-29T01:16:21Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Wouldn’t THAT be fun to debug? > > Also, is it true that debugging comes from the idea that bugs would actually get jammed into the holes in punch cards and ruin the program? > > Thanks for indulging me 😃 bug as a problem predated that i think. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/74 "2012-09-29T08:41:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Although there were many formats for cards, and theoretically you could punch any number of holes in any number of positions in any shape and size, the standard IBM card used in the 1960’s was 80 columns, and I think 80 characters/bytes would be a more reasonable value per card. Eight bits per column was quite common: cf. _object deck_. IBM card reader/punches could operate in a 12-row mode where each column offered 12 bits: any combination of the 12 row punches being permitted. From personal experience I recommend this mode be avoided: the card loses structural integrity and you’ll get a tangle of hanging chads! The use of all 80 columns may also be doubtful. Columns 73-80 were often used for a sequence number – useful in case the deck was dropped or shuffled. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/75 "2012-09-29T12:17:56Z")
> [@Student\_Driver](#): > > Kaypro caught Osborne flatfooted and came out with the Kaypro II which improved on the Felsenstein design (the ad reprinted at the bottom of [this page](http://www.computercloset.org/Kaypro2.htm) was a shot across Osborne’s bow) and also ran CP/M; those frustrated with the Osborne 1 upgraded to the Kaypro II, and people who had been waiting for the improved Osbornes now had an alternative. There were more. I got my hands on an _Escort_ (can’t find a link), about the size of the Kaypro, but used 3.5" floppies instead of 5". It had a 9" amber screen that didn’t require “rubber-banding” like the Osbourne. It was pretty hip for the time; I took it on a commercial plane once after making a minimal cloth cover to protect the case. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/76 "2012-09-29T15:53:54Z")
Count me in with those who had an Atari 800. Never did get much into programming, though. matter of fact, I still have it. Still works. Along with the Atari 410 cassette drive. Still works. And a “Frogger” program cassette. _Still works._ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/77 "2012-09-29T16:06:13Z")
I learned to program BASIC and FORTRAN on a CDC 3300, which didn’t even have integrated circuits, it had magnetic core memory. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/78 "2012-09-29T16:24:40Z")
In (I think) 1984 I tried to write some programmes in Basic for my Commodore 64. I realised then it wasn’t my calling in life. ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/79 "2012-09-29T16:27:50Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > There were more. I got my hands on an _Escort_ (can’t find a link), about the size of the Kaypro, but used 3.5" floppies instead of 5". It had a 9" amber screen that didn’t require “rubber-banding” like the Osbourne. It was pretty hip for the time; I took it on a commercial plane once after making a minimal cloth cover to protect the case. Can’t find any pictures, and bare mentions mostly in USENET postings, but looks like it was from Jonos Ltd., Anaheim CA. The Escort was a series of 8-bit Z80 CP/M models from 1983-1985 or so, and quite expensive (lowest end model was over $3,000, while the Osborne 1 was down from half of its original 1981 MSRP to $900 and the 1982 Kaypro II was still $1,600). Also ran across a 1982 InfoWorld article mentioning an announced Jonos Courier portable that ran on an 8085 and had an optional Gucci carrying case… so I’m thinking that they were purposefully going for the higher-end market. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689/80 "2012-09-29T16:31:23Z")
> [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > Oh yeah, does anybody remember the old Osborne portable computer? It was about as big as a breadbox and weighed a ton, but it was the first “laptop.” It was pretty cool, but did not last long. Probably because back then, nobody could envision any use for such a thing. Remember them? I have one in the closet down in the basement. 🆒 It used to belong to my dad. I saved it from the trash heap when mom was going to throw it out after he died. I used to have that David H. Ahl book with a bunch of BASIC games and used to program those on the Osborne. [This](http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=950) is the first computer I ever used - my high school had one of these. The display was a single line LED readout, probably about 40 chars wide. It printed on thermal paper that came out of the top. It also had a card reader and plotter attached to it. My friend and I would get to school early in the morning so we could spend some time playing a Star Trek game on it before homeroom. My first job out of college I had a 286 PC that ran an early version of Windows. It would literally take about a twenty minutes to start up in the morning. I’d come in in the morning, turn on the PC, then go start a pot of coffee, and the coffee would be done before the PC was ready to go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remberance-of-things-past-computer-division/635689.md?page=5)