# Remembering birthdate. Modern vs ancient humans **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 20, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020 "2021-09-20T20:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/21 "2021-09-21T10:48:28Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, you have length of day, I suppose, Not without clocks, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/22 "2021-09-21T11:04:24Z")
You’d have a rough idea, even without clocks. Can’t get as much done before nightfall as days get shorter. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/23 "2021-09-21T11:28:32Z")
A rough idea isn’t going to get you within ten days’ accuracy ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/24 "2021-09-21T11:41:29Z")
Did people in ancient/pre-history time have a need to know their birthday? If they did, they’d figure out a way to keep track. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/25 "2021-09-21T13:51:54Z")
Having done a lot of genealogy I can tell you that remembering your birthdate wasn’t even that important to people in the 19th century. Once you were past the age related milestones of confirmation and age of majority years blended into each other with the same cycle of labor and events. If you weren’t actively literate you didn’t have much reason to pay attention to what year it was. I expect pre-historic people generally thought of time in terms of events, since we find that tendency even in historic records. E.g. “I was born the year before the flood that washed half the camp away.” Some might have kept track of the number of winters (or other culturally important season) they’d lived, but I doubt it was universal. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/26 "2021-09-21T14:05:56Z")
My mother-in-law was born in a small town in West Africa. We don’t know exactly what year. It wasn’t part of their culture or society to keep track of years lived, so they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/27 "2021-09-21T14:10:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You’d have a rough idea, even without clocks. Can’t get as much done before nightfall as days get shorter. Unless you’re in the tropics/near the equator in which case there isn’t a difference ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/28 "2021-09-21T14:18:47Z")
As far as I can see nobody has mentioned the stars as a way of tracking the time of year. That would have been the major way of doing so, especially in places where there wasn’t much seasonal variation. [Constellations by Month](https://www.constellation-guide.com/constellations-by-month/) > Constellations that can be seen in the evening sky change from month to month. > > Stars rise and set four minutes earlier each night and, as a result, we see constellations rising and setting two hours earlier each month. They move by 90 degrees from one season to the next and return to the same position after a full year. > > Each constellation is best seen in the evening sky at a certain time of year, whether it only briefly shows up above the horizon or it is visible throughout the year from a certain location. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/29 "2021-09-21T14:45:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Here in Chicago, I’m not sure I’d be able to tell you a Dec 1 from a Jan 1 or pehaps even a Feb 1. At any point, the weather could be exactly the same on any of those dates…I can’t see how it’s possible to reliably determine a date within 10 days. That’s because you have lived your entire life encased in concrete and steel boxes. But if you lived in and with nature, you would know the difference between Dec 1 and Feb 1 because in Dec you have been feeling chilly for a month, but by February you have been shivering every day for 90 days. And there are lots of other clues in nature, which we modern people are oblivious to. But if your only source of food is the stuff growing around you, then you would recognize a hundred different types of plants, and know in detail.how deep their roots are,when their seeds are edible,etc. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/30 "2021-09-21T14:47:06Z")
Sure, but I was envisioning more a case in which I’m warped down into a random date to determine what day of the year it is. Given the context of a whole year, I would be likely to guess correctly within a couple weeks, at most. I suppose that is the more likely scenario posited before, and more in keeping with the thread, so I take back my objection. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/31 "2021-09-22T03:56:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And there are lots of other clues in nature, which we modern people are oblivious to. First leaf and first bloom dates [have a range of around 20 days](https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-leaf-and-bloom-dates). Maybe you could get a better idea by looking at more indicators… but nature doesn’t seem all that reliable. > [@chappachula](#): > > but by February you have been shivering every day for 90 days. As long as you’re just counting days, you don’t have to bother with temperature or plants. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/32 "2021-09-22T04:29:28Z")
Births used to be recorded in Family Bibles. They’re a very good source for genealogy. Unfortunately Bibles can get lost. My moms sister took the family Bible when cleaning out my grandmother’s house. My aunt died a few years later. The Bible has never been seen since. There was at least 4 generations of information lost. I can remember older people in my childhood that didn’t know their exact age. I searched Google colonial gravestones. Most only include date of death. Some include an age. Going further back in history, knowledge of calender dates may have been limited to the upper classes. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/42/ca/d242cafaebbc917fde4e02af8b343759.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/42/ca/d242cafaebbc917fde4e02af8b343759.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/33 "2021-09-22T04:45:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A rough idea isn’t going to get you within ten days’ accuracy Also most of the early civilizations that were inventing calendars and writing were fairly close to the equator–much less yearly variation in day lenght. (ETA: Deadly Asian Assassined, I see.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/34 "2021-09-22T04:50:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Family Bibles > [@aceplace57](#): > > colonial gravestones > [@aceplace57](#): > > upper classes You are working off a very different definition of “ancient” ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/35 "2021-09-22T04:53:02Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I expect pre-historic people generally thought of time in terms of events, since we find that tendency even in historic records. E.g. “I was born the year before the flood that washed half the camp away.” Some might have kept track of the number of winters (or other culturally important season) they’d lived, but I doubt it was universal. Like this. [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01576895.2017.1279062](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01576895.2017.1279062) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/36 "2021-09-22T05:55:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Births used to be recorded in Family Bibles. They’re a very good source for genealogy. Unfortunately Bibles can get lost. My moms sister took the family Bible when cleaning out my grandmother’s house. My aunt died a few years later. The Bible has never been seen since. There was at least 4 generations of information lost. > > I can remember older people in my childhood that didn’t know their exact age. > > I searched Google colonial gravestones. Most only include date of death. Some include an age. > > Going further back in history, knowledge of calender dates may have been limited to the upper classes. What does any of that have to do with the OP who asked about the time before calendars? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/37 "2021-09-22T06:47:36Z")
The OP asked about people knowing their birthdate and age. I was attempting to make the point that DOB is a fairly modern concept. Genealogy relies heavily on church records for that information. That information is relatively modern compared to ancient times. It’s my understanding the earliest calendars were kept by priests tracking the equinoxes and solstices. The tribes relied on their priests to tell them the start of the seasons. They relied on oral tradition to tell stories and sing songs of the past. The concept of precise dates on a calendar came later. It is interesting to ask if early people marked the passage of years. Marks scratched on a rock wall (tally marks). That would require a number system and understanding of how to count. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/38 "2021-09-22T07:18:15Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > My mother-in-law was born in a small town in West Africa. We don’t know exactly what year. It wasn’t part of their culture or society to keep track of years lived, so they didn’t. I think this is the OP’s answer. The concept of tracking time requires a basic understanding of counting. Do the people see a need for tracking the passage of years? This article describes notched sticks and bones. > **[Early Human Counting Tools](https://mathtimeline.weebly.com/early-human-counting-tools.html)** > > Period: Approximately 44,000 BCE ~ The exploitation of counting was a very gradual process in human history, and much of the details of this development is unknown. However, three major tools that... ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/39 "2021-09-22T08:47:40Z")
Tally sticks were still used in fairly recent times. It was a bonfire of these that set the Palace of Westminster on fire in 1834. In a primitive society where everything would be pretty communal, there would be no great need for counting stuff, so time passing, like full moons for example, might be something worth recording. Any way of predicting the future is going to confer power on the predictor. Regardless of that, it’s hard to see what advantage there would be in knowing how many winters had passed since whatever - birth/flood/invasion? Maybe in the short term - “This many winters ago.” hold up some fingers, but who would care really? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020/40 "2021-09-22T13:23:59Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Looking a lot recently at 19th century records that include ages, which were presumably supplied by the subject themselves and checking these against separate birth records, it was not uncommon to see discrepancies of 5 years or more. Hmmph… just like OKCupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-birthdate-modern-vs-ancient-humans/951020.md?page=3)