# Remembering One's Birth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919 "2004-06-06T05:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/41 "2004-06-09T02:06:14Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Thanks for that. > No, they are _testing_ their model by **observing the real thing**. > > How do explain the observed difference in deep nuclei activity in the trained and untrained **real things**? I went back and read it again, this is a model. The subject is a mouse, who they say when trained a difference in deep nuclei activity is observed. They are hesitant to call this memory, it is a beginning study. What is it? I don’t know what it is, and the scientists don’t either. One experiment is not enough to mean what you hope it means. On the other hand there are hundreds of veridical NDEs in existence that show memory is not in the brain. Love ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/42 "2004-06-09T02:24:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > On the other hand there are hundreds of veridical NDEs in existence that show memory is not in the brain. The site you posted was pretty remarkable in its shallowness and unconvincing-ness, so you should probably try a little harder to prove what you ‘know.’ By the way, if memory isn’t in the brain, how does amnesia work? How can a soul forget things? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/43 "2004-06-09T08:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > The subject is a mouse, who they say when trained a difference in deep nuclei activity is observed. A **real** mouse, not a _model_ mouse. They are _testing_ their ‘model’, their ‘hypothesis’, on **real brains**. How do you **explain** the difference in deep nuclei activity, if not that the training _caused a verifiable difference in the brain’s molecules_? Why would this happen if memory was solely in the mouse’s ‘spirit’? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/44 "2004-06-09T13:39:57Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Just to be clear for the audience, **lekatt** is not talking about memories from being in the _womb_, he is proposing memories from **before conception**. > > He enjoins us to show, somehow, that his Normal Dream Experiences were [n]not\*\* supernatural. (He, of course, believes that [dreams are real](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259588&p=4935622).) > > [Cognition in infancy.](http://www.wwnorton.com/psychsci/ch11_overview.htm) > > Sensorimotor functions develop in the first two years of life, with long-term memory functions developing afterwards. Purkinje cells are the those in the cerebellum which “encode” inputs in long strings of dendrites to form memories. Direct observation of [memories being formed on a molecular level](http://neuroscience.jhu.edu/molecules2memory.pdf) is possible. I have a very crystal-clear memory of an incident that occurred when I was about 9 months old; my sister and my mother both confirm it. Apparently, my timing was great and it happened just in time to imprint on my first sets of Purkinje cells 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/45 "2004-06-09T15:13:45Z")
I think we should take a moment to acknowledge that, if the day ever comes when Lekatt can actually prove that the amazing gibberish he spouts is factually true, our minds will be collectively blown. (But not our brains, since they’re only interfaces between the body and spirit.) Lekatt, Dude, if you want to say that, as a matter of personal faith, you believe we have eternal spirits, separate from our bodies, that allow us to have a life after death, fine. That’s a core belief of most of the world’s religions, it’s certainly an appealing idea, and I hope it gives you comfort. If convincing scientific evidence is ever found to support this idea, and then reconfirmed through numerous experiments and observations (as is the case with all the scientific theories that have stood up over time), then it will truly be a world-changing revolution in knowledge. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it’s silly to pretend ti has. As for memory, I believe the current thinking (speaking as a layman) is that it’s pretty malleable; people can create false memories that seem just as “real” as genuine memories. I **think** my earliest memory is of acquiring the scar on my forehead, but when I remember the Oxford shoe coming at me, and the blood running into my eyes, am I actually replaying a recording of the sensory impressions I took in back in 1964, or is it just a scenario I’ve constructed in my head, based on my knowledge of what happened? For instance: often I’ll watch an old movie I haven’t seen in many years. I may have a really clear memory of a particular piece of dialogue, only to find that the dialogue is different in the actual movie. Yet I’ve **still got** my memory of my own version – it seems just as genuine as the memory of what I’ve just seen on the screen. (On the other hand, I was a breach-birth forceps delivery, and to this day I hate it when somebody clamps my head in a steel instrument and forcibly drags me backwards. _Coincidence?_) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/46 "2004-06-09T16:15:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The site you posted was pretty remarkable in its shallowness and unconvincing-ness, so you should probably try a little harder to prove what you ‘know.’ By the way, if memory isn’t in the brain, how does amnesia work? How can a soul forget things? I think we have been through this many times. So I will approach it differently. If memory were really in the brain and got lost, through trauma of some kind. Then it could never be restored, it would be gone forever, but that is not the case. People more often than not recovery their lost memories, and this happens when spirit rebuilds the interface so they can be located again. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/47 "2004-06-09T16:24:43Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I think we should take a moment to acknowledge that, if the day ever comes when Lekatt can actually prove that the amazing gibberish he spouts is factually true, our minds will be collectively blown. (But not our brains, since they’re only interfaces between the body and spirit.) > > Lekatt, Dude, if you want to say that, as a matter of personal faith, you believe we have eternal spirits, separate from our bodies, that allow us to have a life after death, fine. That’s a core belief of most of the world’s religions, it’s certainly an appealing idea, and I hope it gives you comfort. If convincing scientific evidence is ever found to support this idea, and then reconfirmed through numerous experiments and observations (as is the case with all the scientific theories that have stood up over time), then it will truly be a world-changing revolution in knowledge. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it’s silly to pretend ti has. > > As for memory, I believe the current thinking (speaking as a layman) is that it’s pretty malleable; people can create false memories that seem just as “real” as genuine memories. I **think** my earliest memory is of acquiring the scar on my forehead, but when I remember the Oxford shoe coming at me, and the blood running into my eyes, am I actually replaying a recording of the sensory impressions I took in back in 1964, or is it just a scenario I’ve constructed in my head, based on my knowledge of what happened? > > For instance: often I’ll watch an old movie I haven’t seen in many years. I may have a really clear memory of a particular piece of dialogue, only to find that the dialogue is different in the actual movie. Yet I’ve **still got** my memory of my own version – it seems just as genuine as the memory of what I’ve just seen on the screen. > > (On the other hand, I was a breach-birth forceps delivery, and to this day I hate it when somebody clamps my head in a steel instrument and forcibly drags me backwards. _Coincidence?_) Personal insults like “spouting amazing gibberish” only incourages me. There is a lot of Fighting ignorance I must do now. There are approx. 8 times the people who agree with me than you. The spiritual people have been run off this board with name calling and personal insults. Not many of us who has the courage to post here any more. Now there are hundreds of examples of veridical NDEs that show consciousness lives after the death of the body. There have been scientific studies completed that comfirm this. Many more are underway. If you wish to learn you will, otherwise forget it, and some one else will tell you later. You can’t deny truth forever. Love ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/48 "2004-06-10T12:17:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Personal insults like “spouting amazing gibberish” only incourages me. There is a lot of Fighting ignorance I must do now. > > There are approx. 8 times the people who agree with me than you. The spiritual people have been run off this board with name calling and personal insults. Not many of us who has the courage to post here any more. > > Now there are hundreds of examples of veridical NDEs that show consciousness lives after the death of the body. There have been scientific studies completed that comfirm this. Many more are underway. > > If you wish to learn you will, otherwise forget it, and some one else will tell you later. You can’t deny truth forever. > > Love Maybe you should start with fighting your ignorance of spelling. If you need any **en** couragement I’m sure that can be arranged. As for the OP, I doubt it’s a memory, since you mentioned getting stoned it’s more than likely a result of your drug taking. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/49 "2004-06-10T16:22:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is a lot of Fighting ignorance I must do now. So how about you answer my question?? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/50 "2004-06-10T17:52:51Z")
Lekatt, I apologize. My characterizing your interesting ideas as “amazing gibberish” could be construed as a personal insult, which would be inappropriate for GD. It wasn’t meant as an insult, but I can see how you might reasonably have interpreted it that way. We obviously have very different views of the universe, but that doesn’t _necessarily_ mean either of us is stupid, morally degenerate or mentally ill. Go forth and fight ignorance, thou stalwart! Seriously, I’m glad to have a forum where fairly intelligent people can debate some of these Big Questions in a civil manner. ---
**Author:** ![alimarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@alimarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alimarx)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/51 "2004-06-10T18:25:27Z")
Regarding the OP and some of the other posts in this thread, I have a memory, sometimes more of a feeling, that I tend to remember, or feel, when I’m running a fever, or am really tired, that seems somewhat similar. I feel like I’m extremely up close, like an inch or so, to something that’s obviously on the other side of the room. It fills my vision (in my mind’s eye) and I can almost feel the heat from my face reflected off of it. I thought I was the only one with this kind of… hallucination(?), until I told my wife about it, and she said she has something similar. She says she sees things get “small” and “far away”. Finding other people posting similar things in this thread piques my curiosity; could we be hitting something common here? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/52 "2004-06-10T20:10:26Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Here’s a question for you then. > > If we do have pre-birth memories, and do choose who our parents are (as so many of the cosy stories on the above site would have us believe), then why do so many children make such a poor choice? Why are some saying “Yes, I’ll have the rotten mother and abusive father, please.”? or “Can I be the tenth child for the third world poverty stricken mother with only the 25% survival rate past the first birthday?” > > Because frankly, I can’t imagine any kind of answer you can give to this puzzle that doesn’t take us into very dangerous territory indeed. (i.e. these children are getting exactly what they asked for.) While I couldn’t say why a certain individual makes the choices he makes, there are reasons why the poor stay poor. There are many levels of growth in the spirit world. **Generally speaking** the very poor and the very rich are on the lowest levels. Why? Because they are just beginning their journey of growth, or they have progressed in the past, but fallen back. In just a few words: they don’t know any better. Now, as for getting exactly what you ask for, we all do. The choices we make today determine our future tomorrow, in all cases, there are no exceptions. That is why it is very important for us to choose our thoughts carefully, because they will become reality. [http://www.aleroy.com/seth01.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/seth01.htm) Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/53 "2004-06-10T20:18:04Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Lekatt, I apologize. My characterizing your interesting ideas as “amazing gibberish” could be construed as a personal insult, which would be inappropriate for GD. It wasn’t meant as an insult, but I can see how you might reasonably have interpreted it that way. We obviously have very different views of the universe, but that doesn’t _necessarily_ mean either of us is stupid, morally degenerate or mentally ill. > > Go forth and fight ignorance, thou stalwart! Seriously, I’m glad to have a forum where fairly intelligent people can debate some of these Big Questions in a civil manner. Thanks for the post. I maybe somewhat spooked by insults because hundreds of them have them leveled at me on this board. But if it weren’t for my posts there would be no real tough debates of the big questions. Just put up a news items on NDEs. I hope there will be many more links on it soon. [http://www.aleroy.com/newsitems.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/newsitems.htm) Love ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/54 "2004-06-11T19:04:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If memory were really in the brain and got lost, through trauma of some kind. > > Then it could never be restored, it would be gone forever, but that is not the case. People more often than not recovery their lost memories, and this happens when spirit rebuilds the interface so they can be located again. It isn’t necessarily true that if memory were stored in the brain and something happened to the brain that it would _have_ to be lost forever. Cells are reproducing in people’s bodies all the time. While I don’t have a cite on me, it stands to reason that a head trauma could eventually be repaired over time through the reproduction of certain cells, resulting in the reparation of the particular area of the brain that stored the lost memories. As an individual with a seizure disorder, I have had some very personal experiences with memory loss. Sometimes I have a seizure and can’t remember my own name. But once my head clears, I remember it. Sometimes the effects are longer term, but the memories I’ve lost are always jarred by a reminder. I don’t think that this means they’re stored in my spirit versus my brain. I always thought that (and this is my own theory, which will probably be shot down), since people’s brains are always forming connections between neurons, perhaps when I had a seizure, a particular (possibly weaker) connection was broken, then re-formed when I was reminded of a memory, in essence “reconnecting” my consciousness to the particular place where that memory is stored. It’s been proven that humans’ brains are always active - always forming and breaking connections, so it makes sense to me that recovering a memory after head trauma could just be the reformation or reparation of the neurons that access those memories. Also, if memory is stored in the spirit, then why do people EVER experience memory loss? If this spirit is something totally separate and inviolate to physical experiences, then why would anyone ever lose any part of their memory? And what about diseases like Alzheimers, which indicates that memory loss is a direct results of the breakdown of the brain? > [@lekatt](#): > > So how can biological create energy? Also, would you please clarify this statement a little bit? Are you saying that biological entities cannot create energy? If you are, you are right because the laws of thermodynamics state that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but it can be converted. Cells convert food, water and sunlight to energy through the processes of oxidation, respiration and through photosynthesis. I’m not trying to be belligerent, but I don’t understand what you mean by the statement above. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/55 "2004-06-11T20:10:26Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > It isn’t necessarily true that if memory were stored in the brain and something happened to the brain that it would _have_ to be lost forever. Cells are reproducing in people’s bodies all the time. While I don’t have a cite on me, it stands to reason that a head trauma could eventually be repaired over time through the reproduction of certain cells, resulting in the reparation of the particular area of the brain that stored the lost memories. > > As an individual with a seizure disorder, I have had some very personal experiences with memory loss. Sometimes I have a seizure and can’t remember my own name. But once my head clears, I remember it. Sometimes the effects are longer term, but the memories I’ve lost are always jarred by a reminder. I don’t think that this means they’re stored in my spirit versus my brain. I always thought that (and this is my own theory, which will probably be shot down), since people’s brains are always forming connections between neurons, perhaps when I had a seizure, a particular (possibly weaker) connection was broken, then re-formed when I was reminded of a memory, in essence “reconnecting” my consciousness to the particular place where that memory is stored. It’s been proven that humans’ brains are always active - always forming and breaking connections, so it makes sense to me that recovering a memory after head trauma could just be the reformation or reparation of the neurons that access those memories. > > Also, if memory is stored in the spirit, then why do people EVER experience memory loss? If this spirit is something totally separate and inviolate to physical experiences, then why would anyone ever lose any part of their memory? And what about diseases like Alzheimers, which indicates that memory loss is a direct results of the breakdown of the brain? > > Also, would you please clarify this statement a little bit? Are you saying that biological entities cannot create energy? If you are, you are right because the laws of thermodynamics state that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but it can be converted. Cells convert food, water and sunlight to energy through the processes of oxidation, respiration and through photosynthesis. I’m not trying to be belligerent, but I don’t understand what you mean by the statement above. ok. The body (brain) is an interface (communications tool) that allows spirit (you) to live in the physical world. If the brain is damaged then spirit can’t come through in the damaged area, so you can’t move your foot, remember your name, etc… You (spirit) are not damaged. A driver in a car whose battery has failed can not start the car. The car is damaged but not the driver. So spirit reroutes (repairs) the damage and you can move your foot, remember your name, etc. Without spirit, the brain would be hardwired, already disproven, and any injury to the brain would be permanent. You could never move your foot, remember your name, etc. Some will say that nerves and brain cells rebuild themselves, this may be true but not without spirit. Without spirit your body is dead, or in a coma without brain waves or heart beat. How do we know there is separation of body and spirit? By literally millions of people having out-of-body, and near death experiences over all historic time. Skeptics like to say these experiences are only illusions of some kind. But can not bring any evidence forth to prove this. Research has been done that agrees with the separation. [http://aleroy.com/newsitems.htm](http://aleroy.com/newsitems.htm) This link shows the press releases of some of those studies. On the other question: Spirit is energy, so if scientists are saying memory is stored in energy form, they are talking about spirit. If memory is biological as science believes, and is stored in the brain, it should be the biggest thing there and very easy to see. However, all brain cells look alike, and show nothing stored in them. A perfect interface for spirit to make connections, change connections, repair connections, etc. About seizures, I want you to read the first link on the link page above. I think you will find it interesting. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/56 "2004-06-11T20:21:45Z")
If the link above don’t work, try it later, they are having some trouble on the servers. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/57 "2004-06-11T23:33:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > ok. The body (brain) is an interface (communications tool) that allows spirit (you) to live in the physical world. If the brain is damaged then spirit can’t come through in the damaged area, so you can’t move your foot, remember your name, etc… You (spirit) are not damaged. My own research on the NonCorporealConsciousnessField shows this to be false. An injury to the brain will also damage the NCCF. > [@](#): > > How do we know there is separation of body and spirit? By literally millions of people having out-of-body, and near death experiences over all historic time. Unproven anectdotes. > [@](#): > > Skeptics like to say these experiences are only illusions of some kind. But can not bring any evidence forth to prove this. I site my research in Pseudotheizine, a drug that was designed to induce false spiritual experinces. I also site my research on the QuantumEthericVibratoryResidium deposited in th NCCF of any person who has actually undergone seperation of their physical body and NCCF. This Residium is present in any NCCF which has been through such seperation. It is impossible to undergo CorpoealDetachment without acquiring the Residium. It is impossible to acquire it any other way. An indivual without this Residium has only experienced what seemed to be an NDE. > [@](#): > > On the other question: Spirit is energy, so if scientists are saying memory is stored in energy form, they are talking about spirit. The NCCF is energy. But not all energy is NCCF. For example, it is electrical energy which makes the heart beat. > [@](#): > > If memory is biological as science believes, and is stored in the brain, it should be the biggest thing there and very easy to see. However, all brain cells look alike, and show nothing stored in them. It would take years to correct everything that is wrong in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/58 "2004-06-13T08:23:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > While I couldn’t say why a certain individual makes the choices he makes, there are reasons why the poor stay poor. The poor are poor because they don’t know any better? Same goes for the rich. OK. And it’s their own fault? OK. A bit harsh on that starving refugee child, but I guess they must have really messed up last time around. Is it my responsibility to help out these people? Or is that not just letting them escape the responsibilities of their previous life’s actions? So, in the world of these talented little children who assure Mother and Father that ‘I chose you’, why are there not also little horrors saying 'I had no choice but to accept you third-raters, cos I’m a bad person." ? My point is that the ‘evidence’ so often presented about these beliefs always centre around the ‘warm and fuzzy’ aspects that make people feel good about themselves and their children. We never hear tales from those experiencing the other side of the coin. Not a peep from bad parents being allocated spiritually backward offspring. All we get is other people judging them in a way that apparently is based most on their wealth or poverty. I wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/59 "2004-06-13T10:58:45Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > The poor are poor because they don’t know any better? Same goes for the rich. OK. And it’s their own fault? OK. A bit harsh on that starving refugee child, but I guess they must have really messed up last time around. Is it my responsibility to help out these people? Or is that not just letting them escape the responsibilities of their previous life’s actions? > > So, in the world of these talented little children who assure Mother and Father that ‘I chose you’, why are there not also little horrors saying 'I had no choice but to accept you third-raters, cos I’m a bad person." ? > > My point is that the ‘evidence’ so often presented about these beliefs always centre around the ‘warm and fuzzy’ aspects that make people feel good about themselves and their children. We never hear tales from those experiencing the other side of the coin. Not a peep from bad parents being allocated spiritually backward offspring. All we get is other people judging them in a way that apparently is based most on their wealth or poverty. > > I wonder why that is? There are no victims. There is no evil, only people learning to grow emotionally and spiritually. I said generally speaking, the economic state is only one indication they have made some poor choices for themselves because of spiritual immaturity. This is not a judgement of good or bad. All grow and win in the end. All learn to make better choices as they mature. No one is lost, or forgotten. We do not expect children to understand adult concepts. A child will wonder out into the busy streets because of immaturity. If the child’s body is destroyed there will be other bodies, and other lifetimes to learn. But still it is more complicated, the child may have chosen the event in order to help with the growth of others. That is why we can not know the path of others or judge them. Hardly anyone acts out of evil intent from their statndpoint. The crook may believe he is entitled to steal for various reasons, even the mass murderers believed they were cleansing the world of unnecessary people. Yes, we are to help those in need to learn, as well as to live in the physical. But if we help others out of guilt, or to show off, we do not grow. We help and serve others because we want to do so, then we grow. The final word is love, God’s love is unconditional and we grow to be like HIm. Therein lies the true path. So learn to love and understand others, in the process you will learn to love and understand who you are, Love ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919/60 "2004-06-13T16:36:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are no victims. There is no evil . . . > No one is lost . . . Pseudotheizine is evil. Those who designed it, those who manufacture it, those who distribute it, are evil. And those who are poisoned by it, and not cured, are lost. Most people are familiar with the division of the mind into the conscious and unconscious. The research of EtherPsychologists such as myself is largely concerned with a part of the mind that most people have never heard of- the MetaConsciousMind. It is the MCM which contains the capability for both psychic ability and spiritual experience. In most people, the MCM remains UnActualized. I and other members of the College Of Etheric Sciences, devote much of our time to finding a way to Actualize the MCM. Pseudotheizine was designed to destroy it. Pseudotheizine produces false spiritual and paranormal experiences. These range from feelings of deja vu, and a sense of being connected to a higher power, to very detailed and convincing hallucinations of NonCorporeal/CorporealDisjunction (the seperation of the physical body and the NonCorporealConsciousnessField. Laypeople call such seperations near death or out of body experiences). At the same time it convinces people that they have had a spiritual experience and found spiritual truth, Pseudotheizine destroys the ability to have a real spiritual experience and blocks the mind from accepting real spiritual truth. Human beings can only experience the spiritual through their MCMs. Pseudotheizine slowly destroys the MCM. Due to a passage in CS Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters in which Screwtape advises to keep humans from God by getting them to fixate on a false god, those suffering from Pseudotheizine are sometimes said to have Screwtape Poisoning. The drug convinces the person that the false spirituality that they’re experiencing is real. This causes them to close their minds to the real thing. A profound and thorough examination of their beliefs and of themselves can cleanse the mind of Pseudotheizine. But, the false sense of knowing induced by the drug makes it very hard to convince the patient to do this. Over time, the poisoning grows progressively worse. Eventually, the MCM is completely destroyed. At that point, it is impossible for the patient to have any genuine psychic or spiritual experience. It’s like tearing the wings off of a dove and convincing it that it is soaring above the clouds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remembering-ones-birth/248919.md?page=4)