# Remind me again - we shed blood for these savages because ...? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212 "2008-02-04T14:57:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/1 "2008-02-04T14:57:43Z")
[Downloading a report on women’s rights - that’s a stoning.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7204341.stm) This is Afghanistan - the supposed west-friendly Afghanistan our soldiers are fighting for. A journalist sentenced to death for ‘insulting Islam’. > [@](#): > > An Afghan journalist has been sentenced to death by a provincial court for distributing “blasphemous” material. > > Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, 23, was arrested in 2007 after downloading material from the internet relating to the role of women in Islamic societies. > > A primary court in Balkh province said that Kambakhsh had confessed to blasphemy and had to be punished. > > The court also threatened to arrest any reporters who protested against Kambakhsh’s sentence. > > Kambakhsh, a student at Balkh University and a journalist for Jahan-e Naw (New World), was arrested in October 2007 after material he downloaded was deemed to be offensive to Islam. But thankfully … [Lifeline](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/lifeline-for-pervez-afghan-senate-withdraws-demand-for-death-sentence-777188.html) > [@](#): > > In a dramatic volte-face, the Afghan Senate has withdrawn its confirmation of a death sentence on Sayed Pervez Kambaksh, the student convicted of blasphemy for downloading a report on women’s rights from the internet. > > The move follows widespread international protests and appeals to the President, Hamid Karzai, after the case was highlighted by The Independent and more than 38,000 readers signed our petition to secure justice for Mr Kambaksh. In Britain, the Foreign Secretary David Miliband, the Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg and the shadow Foreign Secretary, William Hague, backed the campaign, and there have been demonstrations in the Afghan capital, Kabul. > > The first ruling by the Senate supporting the death sentence on Mr Kambaksh by a religious court in Mazar-i-Sharif in the north of the country, was proposed by Sibghatullah Mojaddedi, a key ally of President Karzai, and was seen as a severe blow to the 23-year-old journalism student’s chances of avoiding execution. The new stance, in which the Senate calls its previous decision “a technical mistake”, significantly raises hopes that he will eventually be freed. > [@](#): > > Mr Kambaksh’s family and friends had complained that he was not allowed legal representation at his trial, which was held in secret. Fundamentalist Muslim clerics say he should not have access to the normal right of appeal under the state because he was convicted of the religious crime of blasphemy. The Senate statement yesterday explicitly recognised that the student should have the right to a defence lawyer as well as the right to appeal. A defence lawyer and a right of appeal? You don’t bloody well say? I wonder how people who aren’t journalists with a bunch of international new organisations in their corner fare? Fuck 'em all. And I extend this offer to anyone inclined to whine on about how this isn’t really because of ‘Islam’ but due to some unspecified ‘cultural’ shit. If it walks, talks and explodes in a crowded marketplace like a duck - it’s a friggin’ duck. Seriously - why are our soldiers fighting and dying? Let’s replace them all with Predator drones and a cavalier disregard for ‘collateral damage.’ ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/2 "2008-02-04T15:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s replace them all with Predator drones and a cavalier disregard for ‘collateral damage.’ You obviously have some objective in mind. Could you explain what it is and why you think this approach will be effective? Otherwise I’d be inclined to think you’ve just discovered the world is an ugly and difficult place and you’re masturbating over some faraway notions of it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/3 "2008-02-04T15:18:57Z")
[QUOTE=hawthorne] You obviously have some objective in mind. Could you explain what it is and why you think this approach will be effective? Otherwise I’d be inclined to think you’ve just discovered the world is an ugly and difficult place and you’re masturbating over some faraway notions of it. [/QUOTE] I no longer give a fuck about Afghanistan or the well-being of Afghans or any other denizens of backward bloody countries where British soldiers are getting killed on a weekly basis just so the can continue behaving like barbarians fresh from the Dark Ages. Execution for downloading a document on women’s rights? Give us all a bloody break. However I am concerned with stopping Al-Q getting a safe haven again, which will require force. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/4 "2008-02-04T15:30:40Z")
Predator drones won’t secure the oil pipelines. Or did you really think we were fighting for “the people of Afghanistan”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/5 "2008-02-04T15:31:31Z")
And it will be a lot easier to prevent AQ/Taliban from getting said foothold if the populace, y’know, would like us there. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and Afganistan is a lot better than it used to be. But we can’t go into Pakistan, so right now we’re somewhat limited in our options. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/6 "2008-02-04T15:33:58Z")
How about, “We shed blood for these savages because they aren’t all savages?” Works for me. > [@](#): > > \*In a dramatic volte-face, the Afghan Senate has withdrawn its confirmation of a death sentence \* People who are capable of yielding to pressure and publicly changing their minds are, IMHO, not savages. And denizens of a theocracy who are capable of yielding to international pressure from denizens of other mutually exclusive belief systems, and publicly changing their minds on a subject of great theological import to them and to their constituency, are also, IMHO, not savages. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/7 "2008-02-04T16:01:51Z")
How about, “Anybody who advocates cavalier regard for collateral damage” is a savage, and a piece of shit to boot? Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/8 "2008-02-04T16:03:04Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] This is Afghanistan - the supposed west-friendly Afghanistan our soldiers are fighting for. [/quote] Why dp you think Afghanistan is friendly to the West? At various times the British, the US (because the Russians had invaded) and the US again (because Bush wanted to pretend he was doing something about Bin Laden) have all invaded / sponsored bloody conflicts. [QUOTE=tagos] Seriously - why are our soldiers fighting and dying? [/quote] Because you elected Bush. See also ‘Iraq WMDs’. [QUOTE=tagos] Let’s replace them all with Predator drones and a cavalier disregard for ‘collateral damage.’ [/QUOTE] Scene: An Afghan town. One local leader is pleading for calm, stopping heroin production and making peace with neighbours. The local Al-Qaeda man says the Americans are bloodthirsty killers and they need to be taught a lesson. During the debate a Predator drone wipes out the local School. The locals lynch the leader and sign up to kill Americans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/9 "2008-02-04T16:09:15Z")
We went into Afghanistan primarily to break up Al Qaeda. If we gave a fuck about the Afghans’ freedom, we would’ve done it without being provoked. And we remain there to prevent Afghanistan from becoming a failed state. Now, I will certainly agree that we haven’t exactly executed brilliantly over there, and Iraq is surely a distraction. But, in the end, Afghanistan is a sovereign country and they get to run things, internally, the way they want. It is in our interest to keep al Qaeda out of there, even if they turn into a theocratic state with no respect for human rights. There are other ways to address that than us just picking up and leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/10 "2008-02-04T16:09:47Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Because you elected Bush. See also ‘Iraq WMDs’. [/QUOTE] People in Northern England voted for Bush? Looks like **tagos** is one of your countrymen, dude. Lucky you. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/11 "2008-02-04T16:11:18Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] People in Northern England voted for Bush [/QUOTE] Bastards! ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/12 "2008-02-04T17:18:27Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] People in Northern England voted for Bush? [/QUOTE] Yeah, only there he went by the alias ‘Blair.’ ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/13 "2008-02-04T17:28:14Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] People in Northern England voted for Bush? Looks like **tagos** is one of your countrymen, dude. Lucky you. [/QUOTE] Well spotted that man. 🙂 From the tone of the post, I assumed Tagos was a right-wing fundamentalist from the US. After all, he wants to use the Predator to kill civilians- and it is a US missile… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/14 "2008-02-04T17:36:49Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Seriously - why are our soldiers fighting and dying? [/QUOTE] My WAG would be because you invaded their country. Tough to invade without actually fighting, y’see. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/15 "2008-02-04T17:48:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] How about, “Anybody who advocates cavalier regard for collateral damage” is a savage, and a piece of shit to boot? Works for me. [/QUOTE] Well now, those suicide bombers don’t seem to gave a fuck who they kill do they? Y’know, before 9/11 I never gave a second thought to Islam, couldn’t give a toss about it. Post 9/11, that’s a whole new ball of wax and like it or lump it I’m inclined to go along with **tagos** ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/16 "2008-02-04T17:49:08Z")
I love wars that stretch on for so long that everyone’s forgotten why they were waged. 60 years ago the OP would be all “Why are we fighting in France? All it’s doing is making the Germans bomb us!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/17 "2008-02-04T18:26:00Z")
I’m confused by the OP’s logic. As near as I can tell, it runs something like this: The Afghani government was going to kill an Afghani man because of something he downloaded off the internet. Therefore, we should indiscriminatly kill Afghanis, because they’re all savages who don’t deserve to live. Including, presumably, the one originally sentenced to death. It seems to me that the OP is outraged at the Afghani government for treating Afghans exactly the way he wants them to be treated. Which leaves me a little confused as to why he’s so angry. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/18 "2008-02-04T18:38:38Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Let’s replace them all with Predator drones and a cavalier disregard for ‘collateral damage.’ [/QUOTE] I perceive at least one savage in this story, and he’s not in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/19 "2008-02-04T19:02:31Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] My WAG would be because you invaded their country. Tough to invade without actually fighting, y’see. [/QUOTE] I dunno. [These guys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Invasion#Early_British_Invasion_artists) managed to keep the hostilities to a manageable level. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212/20 "2008-02-04T19:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Well now, those suicide bombers don’t seem to gave a fuck who they kill do they? Y’know, before 9/11 I never gave a second thought to Islam, couldn’t give a toss about it. Post 9/11, that’s a whole new ball of wax and like it or lump it I’m inclined to go along with **tagos** [/QUOTE] Then like it or lump it, I’m inclined to lump you with **tagos** –as a savage and a piece of shit. Signed, **Sophistry and Illusion** (one of the Dopers who has actually spent years living and working with Muslims and finds them, shockingly, to be human beings who don’t deserve to be indiscriminately slaughtered) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remind-me-again-we-shed-blood-for-these-savages-because/436212.md?page=2)