# Removal of a kitty statue. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999 "2003-08-27T16:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/21 "2003-08-27T19:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrTuffPaws \* > \*\*For crying out loud, how could anyone mistake a statue of a cat as a religious symbol??? \*\* I guess you forgot all about Dekejis, demonic servant of Navah, Lord of the Pitch Shadows, Master of Deceit and Evil Dreams, Lord of the Last Illusion, The Merchant of Death,The Unseen Lifter of Lives, Trancer the Cat, Wealth’s Worry. That’s probably what she was thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/22 "2003-08-27T20:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tanaqui \* > \*\*It’s a panther, not a cat. The little details are what counts! 😉 > \*\* Please enlighten me. When did panthers lose their place in the in the Felidae family? [sub]I know it’s the details that count. That is why I have the 27B/6 in triplicate.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/23 "2003-08-27T20:15:33Z")
> [@](#): > > That is why I have the 27B/6 in triplicate. But what about the TPS cover sheet? ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/24 "2003-08-27T20:22:01Z")
Let me insert a little legal analysis among all of this pointing and laughing at this idiot woman. A key fact that the District Court found in the Alabama case was that Chief Justice Moore installed the Ten Commandments as a monument for the purpose of endorsing the Christian religion (or perhaps the Judeo-Christian religious tradition). As such, it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment in that it was an official action of a government official endorsing one religious belief over another. The linked article makes clear that the sleeping panther is a monument to a bit of municipal history of Fort Worth: “The image of a sleeping panther has long been a part of Fort Worth history, beginning in the late 1800s, when a Dallas attorney reportedly claimed after visiting Cowtown that ‘things were so quiet, he had seen a panther asleep on Main Street.’” Accordingly, it was clearly not installed with a religious purpose, even though some religion may find a panther to be a religious symbol. In short, the woman has no legal case for removal of the statue. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/25 "2003-08-27T21:45:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adam yax \* > Please enlighten me. When did panthers lose their place in the in the Felidae family? Aren’t panthers actually members of the rodent family ? We just had a thread about this 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/26 "2003-08-27T21:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lieu \* > \*\*Do people often give cats tits? \*\* Since even newborn kittens have sharp, pointy teeth, bottle feeding is usually advisable, rather than giving them the tit:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/27 "2003-08-27T22:03:14Z")
ooo! That statute is in my town! I should go by tomorrow and put a sign up or something! “Save me from looney dingbats!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/28 "2003-08-27T23:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lieu \* > \*\*Do people often give cats tits? \*\* Google on “furry.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/29 "2003-08-28T03:03:45Z")
I suppose the fur would fly if someone painted the ten commandments on the cat statute. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/30 "2003-08-28T03:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Google on “furry.” Please, Cervaise, no matter how bountiful and/or beautiful you may be, don’t subject less net-savvy Dopers to that. At least, not without a warning. Not that there’s anything **wrong** with that… ---
**Author:** ![Rabid\_Squirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Rabid\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rabid_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/31 "2003-08-28T03:37:09Z")
Speaking of which, what exactly is a pagan staute? If I decide to put a statue of…oh, lets just say me… does that mean I worship myself higher then god? 😃 And thanks **Billdo** for injecting a little reality into this thread 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/32 "2003-08-28T05:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Does the posting of the Ten Commandments amount to the U.S. Congress making a law establishing a religion. It is plain that it does not. There is no official American church. This point has been beaten to death. The 14th amendment makes the requirements of the First Amendment applicable to the states, and “making laws” applies to governmental actions as well as statutes passed by the legislature. There is ample and lengthy legal precedent to back this up. I’ll even pull out some cites for you if you promise to read them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/33 "2003-08-28T06:10:25Z")
Damn, that’s a pretty cool statue. But it’s pagan? Da’hell? What has this chick been smoking and where can I get some? ---
**Author:** ![BraheSilver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@BraheSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BraheSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/34 "2003-08-28T06:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Castillo said she would also not be bothered by a statue of a steer, because Fort Worth is nicknamed “Cowtown,” but that a “cat-type animal brings more sinister symbolism.” Anybody here ever heard of _Hindu_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/35 "2003-08-28T10:11:46Z")
As in, “Okay, Kitty’s out, but will a hen do?” That sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/36 "2003-08-28T10:18:46Z")
hehe… that is not a cat statue… its a panther one. That I know of only the Olmecs venerated panthers… not sure that counts as paganism. Next they will ask to remove the Donkey and the Elephant from the political arena… pagans too ? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/37 "2003-08-28T11:53:09Z")
Roger that, **Blaron**. I don’t disagree with you about the statutes. I merely believe that simply posting the Ten Commandments doesn’t come close to an establishment of religion. I’m aware that the court decision doesn’t agree with this view. Courts aren’t immune to politics, as everyone well knows. Since, in my mind, the Ten Commandments passed constitutional muster, the decision was made to remove them because of political opinions that mandated that Christian symbols shouldn’t be on display in governmental buildings, lest others be offended. There’s nothing wrong with deciding this through normal political practices. But deciding it in the courts and wrapping the whole thing in constitutional language is disturbing to me. It makes far more of the display than necessary, and inspires people to “up the ante.” The Ten Commandments display in question used to be a picture on the wall. Justice Moore bought and installed that big granite monstrosity after someone made a federal case about it, literally. Now we have a crackpot in Texas arguing for the removal of a statue she is offended by. We may all laugh and scoff, but her reasoning is nearly identical to those of the opponents of the Ten Commandments display. She is offended. She is ticked off. She sees disrespect to her beliefs in a government display. Anyone who laughs at her should look at themselves in the mirror, and ask what offends them, and whether a court case to salve their offended sensebilities is always the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/38 "2003-08-28T18:31:44Z")
No, I get “offended” or “ticked off” by particularly stupid bumper stickers. The government declaring that “_This_ set of beliefs about God are correct, and believing this way about God is what makes one a moral person and a good citizen” is dangerous. And if the government were actually telling the people that in order to be good citizens they need to be panther-worshipping pagans, that would be dangerous too; only that’s not what’s happening here, and no amount of hand-waving will make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/39 "2003-08-29T01:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > An unsuccessful Republican candidate for the Texas board of education, Castillo said she believes the monument should remain in place in Montgomery and that the panther in Fort Worth should go. Without even looking to the merits of the lady’s position, the mere fact that she lost a state wide election as a Republican, in Texas of all places, ought to tell you something. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999/40 "2003-08-29T12:29:20Z")
[/QUOTE] _Originally posted by Mr. Moto_ There’s nothing wrong with deciding this through normal political practices. But deciding it in the courts and wrapping the whole thing in constitutional language is disturbing to me. It makes far more of the display than necessary, and inspires people to “up the ante.” [/QUOTE] But the fact remains that there _is_ a constitutional issue. And if something is unconstitutional then it can’t be decided by normal political practices. You seem to argue that it’s not unconstitutional because it’s not establishing a state religion. But the First Amendment doesn’t prohibit only the outright establishment of a state religion. It prohibits laws “regarding establishment of religion” which, by extremely reasonable interpretation means that things that tend towards establishment are barred. And the fact that a moron in Texas “ups the ante” doesn’t mean the Constitution shouldn’t be enforced. > [@](#): > > Now we have a crackpot in Texas arguing for the removal of a statue she is offended by. We may all laugh and scoff, but her reasoning is nearly identical to those of the opponents of the Ten Commandments display. She is offended. She is ticked off. She sees disrespect to her beliefs in a government display. The reasoning isn’t nearly identical except in the most superficial way. The First Amendment doesn’t prohibit displays that a loser with a clear religious agenda decides she’ll pretend offends her. Put more succinctly, the arguments are different because one of them is idiotic. Moore put a Ten Commandments monument in the courthouse to recognize God’s law and His authority over this country. The panther was put in because it used to be a sleepy town. The reasoning isn’t the same. The fact that she threw in what she thought were talismanic words like “First Amendment” doesn’t make her argument the same (and I apologize to the Chicago Reader if my use of the word “talismanic” causes Ms. Castillo to sue for violation of freedom of religion.) The monument isn’t coming down because it offended somebody. It’s coming down because it violates the Constitution. Just because Ms. Castillo is offended and making a stupid argument doesn’t mean everybody who’s offended makes a stupid argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/removal-of-a-kitty-statue/197999.md?page=3)