# Remove Ignorance and Take a Stand-- all in one thread! (gay marriage) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627 "2001-08-28T23:58:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/21 "2001-08-29T04:15:23Z")
Interestingly, my [dictionary](http://www.dictionary.com) wasn’t exclusionist in its definition of marriage: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Marriage _n_ > 1. > a. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. > b. The state of being married; wedlock. > c. A common-law marriage. > d. A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage\*\* Also, marriage - or some form of recognition of same-sex relationships - did occur in the past. See the fine book Same-sex Relationships in Pre-Modern Europe for some examples. I don’t _know_ if they were called marriages or not (It’s been a while since I read this text). That’s not the point. I tend to agree with **Fenris**. (This should come as a shock to no one, I suppose.) I don’t think that the government should give benefits (or detriments) to _any_ married couple. Government should be in the business of “civil unions” (if anything) and should not take a stance one way or the other on the persons involved in said unions. It makes no difference who is involved in a loving, committed relationship. It is apples to apples. It is up to _you_ to prove how my (hypothetical) relationship with the girlfriend I’ve chosen to spend my life with is any different than that of my closest female friend’s to her boyfriend. Both of us have made lifetime commitments. Both of us are contributing members of society. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/22 "2001-08-29T04:23:15Z")
I’m in such agreement with **Fenris** that I’m downright suspicious. Time to get a better tinfoil hat. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/23 "2001-08-29T04:30:47Z")
{sigh} I would respectfully submit that the argument is yours to make that the default definition of marriage should include homosexual unions. Legal benefits can be granted by other means of course, which I would think would solve the civil rights issue. It’s clear that we’re talking past each other at this point, so I’ll end with this post unless something comes up that I feel I need to answer. To me, and this is simply MHO, it just goes without saying that hetero and homo-sexuals _are_ different. Fundamentally. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/24 "2001-08-29T04:39:49Z")
**NaSultainne** , kindly do me the courtesy of explaining _how_ you believe the two are different. Fundamentally. Because until I understand your definition of the difference I cannot possibly come up with any explanation of my stance that is going to address your specific concerns. I don’t see any difference. I don’t see any difference (except gender) between me, **Esprix** , **andygirl** , **Polycarp** , **Biggirl** , **stuffinb** , **jarbabyj** …there’s a poly poster whose name I’ve forgotten, consarn it, but the point is, we’re all people. We all love; some of us (not all of us, as **matt\_mcl** will point out) want to eventually commit ourselves to sharing our lives with another person (or people, in the case of our poly friends). And we all want the same rights - to have our relationship accepted by our religious _and_ secular community, to be able to visit our loved one in the hospital regardless of whether or not their parents approve of us, to not lose everything we’ve built together when one or the other of us finally passes on. In some cases the idea of children applies; in others it doesn’t. Show me the difference. Explain where you’re coming from. (Although, as I said, I agree with **Fenris** about the g’ment’s rightful non-role in marriage. And I tend to agree with **matt\_mcl** as well, that there are other issues of more pressing concern than this. Still.) [sub]FTR, I feel like I should mention that I recently had this conversation with my mother, who didn’t understand why _anyone_ wants to get married anymore. Hetero or homo.[sub] ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/25 "2001-08-29T04:41:22Z")
Of course, that should read “except gender where applicable.” I do have a gender. Sigh. I’m going to bed. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/26 "2001-08-29T04:49:02Z")
Love is love, baby, The rest is just plumbing. How are homosexuals different from heterosexuals, fundamentally? I am a homosexual. Hath not a homosexual eyes? Hath not a homosexual hands, organs, dimensions, senses, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summmer as a heterosexual is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you throw us down on a bed and lick chocolate sauce off us, do we not moan? (OK, I added that one 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/27 "2001-08-29T04:56:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein \* > \*\*First, let me answer your question with a question. Are there really any compelling arguments against marriage between or among blood relatives? I don’t ask this to be facetious; I honestly believe that it is a question just as valid as yours. \*\* I believe the answer to this question is important and I would appreciate an answer from those on the pro-homosexual-marriage side of the equation. If homosexual-marriage is permissible, why shouldn’t any combination of consenting adults be allowed to marry? brother and sister, father and daughter, or even father and son? Along the same lines, why shouldn’t a bisexual man be allowed to marry a man AND a woman? Or one man marry multiple women? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/28 "2001-08-29T05:22:24Z")
Okay, **dogsbody** , how are hetero and homosexuals fundamentally different? A hetero couple can produce offspring, perpetuating the species. IMO, society naturally would seek to encourage relationships which promote social stability. It’s a basic biological fact. Two men, two women, do not in fact reproduce as a unit. I have the feeling that what seems clearly distinct means little to you, and vice versa. To me this seems so obvious. Humans, IMO, would not exist today if homosexuals were 95% of the population and heterosexuals the rest. That’s assuming ol’ mother nature wouldn’t adapt and modify the species…'nother subject. To secure property and inheritance rights would also follow. I don’t at all disagree with _you_ **gobear** , that homosexuals are people just like any other, with that one exception. To consider homosexual unions _identical_ to heterosexuals is to me, intrinsically in error. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/29 "2001-08-29T05:41:44Z")
**NaSultainne** , your reply brings up the question, why should infertile couples be allowed to marry? They can’t reproduce. Shouldn’t the same laws that apply to homosexuals apply to them? And as to this quote: > [@](#): > > . Humans, IMO, would not exist today if homosexuals were 95% of the population and heterosexuals the rest. What’s your point? In a hugely hypothetical case, homosexuals could be a long-term detriment to the race as a whole. Hey, if 95% of the population were men, the same thing would apply. How does that justify denying men legal rights? And why do you think I don’t care what happens to my property upon my demise? Why wouldn’t gay people qualify for the same inheritance considerations given to straight people? So, to sum up… what’s the difference between a marriage between two gay people, and an infertile couple? Or a couple that chooses to remain childless? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/30 "2001-08-29T06:16:41Z")
Hello **MrVisible** , seems we’ve been here before, doesn’t it? Please understand, I have no dispute with civil rights for all people. Well, okay, I’ll qualify that to law-abiding people. That isn’t my area of disagreement. I merely believe that a man and a woman complement each other, resulting in offspring, which is essential to species survival, and that this is a unique and crucial distinction. No, offspring don’t always result, and that isn’t the issue. The design of humans, and I don’t mean this in a religious perspective, is what distinguishes men and women from each other, and both are required to create life. This is why I consider marriage unique to heterosexuals. I do believe gays should have all the legal rights that anyone should rightfully call their due, I just fail to see how anyone can say, with a straight face, that there aren’t perfectly legitimate, valid, and distinct differences between heterosexual and homesexual unions. NOT better, just different. Diversity is all the buzzword these days; how can _different_ be synonymous with _same_? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/31 "2001-08-29T06:26:26Z")
I’m calling it. Erislover’s question has been answered. The arguments that have been offered so far: “on principle” - fenris “[Marriage] is … defined as a relation between a husband(man) and wife(woman).” - NaSultainne “I’m satisfied with the status quo” - NaSultainne “What is wrong with the current definition of marriage?” - NaSultainne “Not only do I think so, the dictionary says so, and so do a majority of the country.” - NaSultainne "I don’t see it as appropriate to force upon society a new definition of marriage - waterj2 “redefining marriage to include other kinds of relationships would be a kind of “meaning” inflation to which I object in principle.” - Weird\_AL\_Einstein “If homosexual-marriage is permissible, why shouldn’t any combination of consenting adults be allowed to marry?” - evilhanz In other words, there _is_ no compelling argument for denying gays the right to marry. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/32 "2001-08-29T06:40:04Z")
No, **uglybeech** , you don’t get to call it. AND your opinion matters in the grand scheme about as much as mine, which is to say, not a whole friggin’ lot. My opinions are every bit as valid as anyone’s, even yours, though, and I dare say more in line with a majority of the people in the U.S. I’ve thought a lot about this lately, and I’ll continue to do so, but I do have say I’ve not heard a persuasive argument for gay marriage, other than “because we want it”, which, see above, leaves us with the status quo. So. You stick to your opinion, I’ll stick to mine, and if either of us comes up with something absolutely irrefutable, we can come back for another round. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/33 "2001-08-29T06:53:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **NaSultainne** _ > I do believe gays should have all the legal rights that anyone should rightfully call their due, I just fail to see how anyone can say, with a straight face, that there aren’t perfectly legitimate, valid, and distinct differences between heterosexual and homesexual unions. Well of course there’s a difference. The question is, what does that difference entail legally? What rights should I and my (hypothetical, unfortunately) homosexual partner not have that a heterosexual married couple would have? Should we be able to… Visit each other in the hospital, as family members do? Adopt children with the same amount of paperwork and research that heterosexual couples go through? Have common-law marriage laws apply to long-term relationships? Apply for immigration and/or naturalization status for foreign national partners? Put our partner on our health insurance, as a family member? Aw, heck, **NaSultainne**. Why don’t you go through [this list of 1049 items](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.21&filename=og97016.txt&directory=/diskb/wais/data/gao), compiled by the General Accounting Office of the US government, and tell me which of them gay couples don’t deserve. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/34 "2001-08-29T07:14:40Z")
{sigh} What a heckuva report. No, I didn’t get all the way through it, but I read enough for now. You and I are rapidly reaching a semantic impasse it seems, where it all depends on your definition of the word _marriage_. Again I will argue that securing legal rights of property, inheritance, etc., for gay couples doesn’t make an apple into an orange, and a rose by any other name _isn’t_ always a rose. Let me give you a lame example, hokay? Hokay. If I was to introduce my husband as ‘my wife’, I would be making a linguistic error, correct? If you were to introduce your ‘boyfriend’ as your ‘girlfriend’, same thing. Words _do_ have meanings, they _are_ commonly understood, yin and yang _are_ complementary and become a whole together. Bah! This is so frustrating, and I’m sure you’d agree with me on that! Again I’d say that what makes crystal clear sense to me is obviously something much less to you. I can’t think how else to make it make sense, either. I’ve got to go now, it’s super late. If you have anything else to add, I’ll check it out in the a.m. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/35 "2001-08-29T07:35:06Z")
You know, **NaSultainne** , marriage has also been limited, in the past, to “a man and a woman of the same race”. It was still illegal in 13 states as recently as 1967. Fortunately, the definition of marriage has broadened. Society survived. I predict it would survive if the definition of the word “marriage” was broadened to include gay people as well. The definitions of social and legal institutions change over time, hopefully, to reflect a maturing social ethos. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **NaSultainne** _ > Again I will argue that securing legal rights of property, inheritance, etc., for gay couples doesn’t make an apple into an orange, and a rose by any other name isn’t always a rose. Please elaborate on what exactly this means. Are you in favor of legal rights of property, inheritance, etc., for homosexual couples? If so, you can call it Fred for all I care. (“Wanna come to my Fredding this June?” …sorry) As long as gay marriages have the same legal rights as straight ones, we should be fine. I’m no longer sure what you’re arguing. Please define your terms, and what you support in the way of gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/36 "2001-08-29T08:07:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\*You’re right, **dogsbody**. And wrong. You’re right about ‘separate’ because two men/two women do not meet the definition of marriage. Not only do I think so, the dictionary says so, and so do a majority of the country. Granted, the dictionary can say whatever one wants it to say, but the standard has been set for…ever? When did marriage _not_ mean man and woman? You’re wrong because your reasoning for gay marriage is to legal rights and protections equivalent to the married citizenry. I somewhat belatedly acknowledge the validity of your claim, however you’re still talking about a legal recognition for a biological distinction. You can’t say an apple equals an orange equals a lemon. There are commonalities, not equalities. \*\* If I understand correctly, you’re saying that a gay marriage is OK as long it isn’t called “marriage”? 😕 Why do you consider the word as so important? What the difference if the thing is called “marriage” or “gayrriage” or whatever? It could understand that allowing an union between two homosexuals which grant them the same advantages a married pair benefit from can be considered as an issue by some people, but I can’t understand, if it exists, why you don’t want to call it marriage… ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/37 "2001-08-29T08:09:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **clairobscur** _ > > Actually, I would guess that the perspective of children being adopted by homosexual couples would be an even stronger deterrent for many people… Hasn’t stopped the many, many states that allow same-sex couples to adopt. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/38 "2001-08-29T08:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilhanz \* > > I believe the answer to this question is important and I would appreciate an answer from those on the pro-homosexual-marriage side of the equation. If homosexual-marriage is permissible, why shouldn’t any combination of consenting adults be allowed to marry? brother and sister, father and daughter, or even father and son? Along the same lines, why shouldn’t a bisexual man be allowed to marry a man AND a woman? Or one man marry multiple women? \*\* I don’t think marriages in the same bloodlines should be allowed. I see no problem (outside obvious practical issues : I suspect tons of laws should be rewritten) in polygamous or polyandric marriages. In my opinion , they should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/39 "2001-08-29T08:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **evilhanz** _ > > I believe the answer to this question is important and I would appreciate an answer from those on the pro-homosexual-marriage side of the equation. If homosexual-marriage is permissible, why shouldn’t any combination of consenting adults be allowed to marry? brother and sister, father and daughter, or even father and son? Along the same lines, why shouldn’t a bisexual man be allowed to marry a man AND a woman? Or one man marry multiple women? Indeed, other than the “ickiness factor,” what _is_ wrong with cousins marrying, or people wanting to be married to more than one person that they love? Indeed, more and more I’m with **Fenris** - the government should not be in the business of defining what relationships are acceptable in a free country. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627/40 "2001-08-29T08:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > **but I do have say I’ve not heard a persuasive argument for gay marriage, other than "because we want it"** It’s this - by denying the right to marriage, by lowering the status of the union between gays, you are stigmatizing them and harming them. Exactly the way forcing black children into a separate school would still have been harmful even if “separate but equal” HAD been true - and I’m referencing Anthony Kennedy on that. He said the fundamental harm of segregation was not the inequality but the STIGMA of imposing a separate institution on one class of people. I’m sure that’s too abstract for you, so let’s stick with the concrete: 1. “because they want it” for something as personally important as marriage is a pretty good reason. Particularly if your best response amounts to “because that’s the way it is.” Imagine if your right to marry were taken away and the reasoning offered was - we’re just not comfortable with people like you marrying. 2. marriage is a socially stabilizing institution, people in it tend to have more support, be more productive, combine resources effectively, be less anti-social, and so on. It’s generally pro-society. You want to encourage that among gays as much as straights. 3. It’s going to happen one day. And people like you are going to eventually seem as narrow, closed-minded and oppressive as [you are] the segregationists, as those that opposed women’s suffrage, etc. That last is not really an argument, more an observation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remove-ignorance-and-take-a-stand-all-in-one-thread-gay-marriage/78627.md?page=3)