Remove Ignorance and Take a Stand-- all in one thread! (gay marriage)

Anyway, the Supreme Court up here in the frozen north recently said that gay people get common-law marriage, because we said so, so there. So a same-sex union turns into a common-law marriage, which has the same rights and responsibilities as a paper one, on the same timetable and under the same conditions as a straight one.

So: we can get married, we just can’t run off to city hall and have someone declare us married on the spot. I don’t see what the big problem would be with this, and I’m happy to declare the matter resolved to my satisfaction for the time being, and could we please move on to something else, at least north of the border.

Oh, and gobear? Look down.

Yeah beech. Women’s suffrage. That’ll be the day.

I’m totally for gay marriage. I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to be married. I think the government needs to pull it’s head out of it’s ass and stop being so religious.

And another issue brought up was gay adoption. Im all for that too, hell, gay people would probably raise children better. I mean, they know how to dress better, they are nicer people, more open minded, statistically gay people are smarter than straight people, and gay people can’t have kids on accident, so full love and devotion is garaunteed!!
I can understand people fearing child molesters and such, but the adoption agencies can do backround checks and things like that.

Are you lot serious? Have you never heard of the dangers of inbreeding? I suppose if a brother and sister were both infertile they could be permitted to marry. And you don’t think that allowing parent-child marriages would encourage child molestation? Sure, you could allow the child to marry only once he/she reached the age of consent, but you’d have to strictly monitor any dating prior to the wedding. People aren’t allowed to be intimate with their interns because of the potential abuse of power - well where could that situation apply more than in the case of a parent and a child?

Homosexual marriage is totally harmless. The only possible exception I can think of is that it could promote homosexuality in society. So if you believe that homosexuality is wrong and that it should be discouraged in society, it makes sense to oppose gay marriage. And though I might not characterise that as “homophobic”, I hope that society will one day be free of such prejudice.

I object to the term “garriage” on esthetic grounds. Yuk. PoSSLQ was a better term.

Fenris

Ahem I didn’t realize you’d been appointed referee here. Will you be closing the thread now too? :rolleyes:

Why?

Remember, we aren’t just talking about cousins. Heck, in some places they can already get married.

Cite?

Yes I have. Why is it a valid pretext for denying the right to marry?

Any dating done before the age of consent needs to be monitored.

I will pass up on making the obvious Clinton jokes here. People most certainly are “allowed” to be intimate with persons over whom they have power. Sometimes they even get married…

Regarding the “The dictionary says so” argument, I say “Piffle.” It’s almost too dumb of an arguement to be considered, so let’s skip that one, shall we? Language evolves and changes and the dictionary ALWAYS lags behind. It has to. Besides, the dictionary isn’t an arbiter, it’s a record of the language, not the judge.

Anyway, here’s a brief list of reasons to get married:

Love of your spouse:
Applies to gays and straights, either way, government shouldn’t try to define love.

Wanting to commit to a spouse:
Wanna commit in the eyes of God? Keen. Get thee to a church. Want to commit in a legally binding way with or without God? Keen. Draw up a contract (similar to a business partnership) and the government should approve it. Who you choose to have a partnership with is no-one else’s business as long as both people are consenting adults.

Wanting to protect/adopt/provide for kids:
Unless you’re gonna limit marriage to fertile couples (should we require them to have the baby before marriage to prove they’re fertile?), you can’t dismiss gays on this one.

Wanting to grab government goodies
I don’t want government giving out goodies, but if they’re gonna do so anyway, I object to see it limited arbitrarily and narrowly. If the goodies are for the kids, then anyone (or any couple) with kids should be eligible. If it’s for partners, then any partners, from roommates, to husband and wives to gay couples should be eligible.

Wanting to be legitimized in the eyes of God and society?
God, the goverment is prohibited from doing. Society, the government is incapable of doing. Either way, the Government shouldn’t be involved.

Fenris

Indeed. In the UK, that’s where one parks one’s car.

Isn’t this a bit out of date?

It is 2001, insn’t it? It’s like I’m back in the seventies. :slight_smile:

Flower Power Dude.

I, for one, think the gay community should not get into legal semantics with the government and take the “civil union” and then simply call it marriage. Don’t ever use the term civil union, even with government officials, unless they don’t understand what you’re talking about and you MUST use “civil union.”

And then since, as NaSultainne suggested, homosexuals needed to prove why they should be able to get married, we heterosexuals will need to prove why we should be able to keep the term. If we can’t prove it, then we can also no longer use it, and all legally recognized relationships should be called “civil union.”

Hey, its the feelings which matter anyway, right?

As far as interfamilial marriages go, I think they are pretty much accepted anywhere, it is the sex and childbearing which is illegal. I may be wrong, however… but I hope I’m not. If I am wrong, look for that thread in the future.

Actually I’d been hoping to inspire a few Clinton jokes. But seriously, I don’t know what you mean by “allowed”… if a teaching assistant dates a student at Yale University, he is dismissed and his recommendations are rescinded. He isn’t given the death sentence but his near future does look bleak as a result…

Well, if you consider the purpose of marriage within society, this question gets a little sticky.

If you think about in an ideal sense, marriage is the starting of a new family. Members of an old family join together to start a new one.

It can be tough for a man and a women starting off, especially when they have kids. I think raising kids in a stable environment is a positive for society as a whole, and should be encouraged.

Hence, the tax breaks, and the recognition of marriage are important.

Also people cohabiting for life and taking care of each other means it’s less likely the government will have to take care of them; also a positive. It should also be rewarded.

If a gay couple gets married and takes care of each other, society receives the benefit and it should be recognized. If they raise children they are also benefitting society, and they deserve the further tax break enjoyed by conventional married couples.

So, should infertile heterosexual couples be denied the tax breaks that couples with children are given? Should the government start subsidizing babies directly, and save themselves the trouble of getting involved in fertility tests?

It can be tough for two homosexual people to start a life together too, in ways that heterosexual couples never have to deal with. And, as your post pointed out, the societal benefits of married couples are significant.

I’m having trouble discerning from your post what your position on this issue is; could you please clarify? Are you in favor of gay marriage, or against, or in favor of a modified form of marriage for homosexual couples? If a modified form, how would that differ from the legal recognition and benefits given to a heterosexual couple?

The law, folks, is not in the business of deciding what “society” deems proper, but what the legal rights and responsibilities of parties subjecting itself to its procedures happen to be, based on a general concept of freedom modified by the need to interrelate in legitimate ways.

Suppose you want a candy bar, and I own a store which has candy bars on the shelf marked 79¢. So you walk up to the county with a candy bar and a dollar bill, hand them to me to ring up, and I take the dollar bill, put it in my cash drawer, say, “Thank you,” and put the candy bar back on the shelf. You would presumably be outraged.

Why? Because there is an implicit contract there. I’ve offered candy bars for sale for 79¢, and you’ve agreed to buy one for that price. (There’s an inference that you expect me to take your dollar bill and make change, but that’s to one side.) Why is this a valid contract? Because the law says so. Because your dollar bill is legal tender – I would not be obligated to take your personal check, or a printout of the Straight Dope FAQ, or some other piece of paper, in payment for that candy bar.

The law, whether you like it or not, uses the concept of “marriage” as a convenient way of describing the agreement made by two people to live together, share common goods and services, have a right to depend on each other according to a set of parameters embracing the usual customs of that state, provide for minor children that they may engender, adopt, or come in some other way into custody of (fosterage, guardianship, etc.), and dispose of the property they own, separately and together, according to another set of parameters. It does this because the majority of people find “marriage” a useful way to make and take the commitment they feel towards another into a legally binding, legally and socially accepted relationship.

That, Fenris, is why the law should be involved. Because no individual is going to be completely cognizant of every possible event that might befall him and make provision beforehand, and the majority of people need some trigger to cause them to make provision. I would venture to guess that no more than half this exceptionally thoughtful group (the Teeming Millions who follow Cecil Adams) have in place a will, a living will, a durable power of attorney, and a prospective assignment of custody for any minors that they may be in loco parentis to. I would guess that none of our teenage members, thoughtful as they are, have such documents in place, despite the fact that they are just as likely as any of the rest of us to need one of them.

Now, given this much, and raising the question of “marriage” as a civil institution, the next step is to determine why people might marry.

The answers are manifold, but they boil down to “because, in some way, I love this other person, and want him/her to be the person with legal rights over me if I am incapacitated and legal rights to what I own if I die.” Even the most hardhearted marriage of convenience is founded on some form of caring between the parties involved. (BTW, this need not necessarily mean romance. Apropos the “consanguinity” argument raised above, I’d like to nominate as a “good” marriage my aunt and uncle. They were first cousins, he having left his fundamentalist parents in his late teens and moved in with my grandparents, his aunt and uncle, who helped him find the work he retired from 40 years later and effectively became his “second parents.” The two, my mother’s cousin and her sister my aunt, lived together as, effectively, brother and sister for 40+ years, with my grandparents until their deaths and then by themselves after. She worked only sporadically, keeping house for my grandparents, and doing some in-home care after they died. When he came to retire, and was dealing with his estate, she was comfortable but not well-to-do, and he discovered he would leave her some paltry savings but no income, his pension covering only him and his hypothetical widow. He suggested they marry, she accepted, and they had a happy year as man and wife in their 70s before he died of a chronic illness – one day after her rights as his widow came into effect. (I will tick atheists off by suggesting God had a hand in protecting her by that timing, but I’m convinced He did.) (Note 2: In New York first cousins may marry, but only when children are not a potentiality – which applied for them.)

Were marriage solely for procreation, then it would be not only legal but mandatory for every man to divorce his wife at menopause and marry a nubile young woman who could continue to give him children. Older couples who persisted in remaining together out of “love” when they could no longer beget and bear children would be arrested and charged with fornication and maintenance of a public nuisance. Polygyny would be legalized since any one man can beget children on many women.

For some obscure reason, this argument does not sit well with those who feel that “marriage is for procreation” – especially those who think that God ordained it that way.

Marriage is a formalization of a commitment to continue loving. That is what it is, and what it should be.

Now, contemplate the difference between gay and straight people. The objects of sexual interest and love are the sole differentiating factor drawing that line – for a gay person, the sex object, and mostly the person with whom one falls in love, is of the same sex. For the straight person, he/she is of the opposite sex.

My conclusion is that gay persons should have the same civil right to marry the person they love as straight persons. (The old argument that gay people have the same rights as straight people – to marry someone of the opposite sex – needs to be put down. I think it was Voltaire who once commented that rich and poor people alike have the same right to eat moldy bread and sleep under bridges on winter nights, but only poor people take advantage of that right.)

I do not debate that “what society thinks” has a great deal to do with the law. But good law is founded, not on what society thinks is normal behavior, but on what society considers that each individual has the right to do. If I had the right to marry the woman I loved and to commit to spending the rest of my life with her, supporting her and being supported by her financially, emotionally, and so forth and so on, then gobear has the same right to marry the man he loves – if he’s prepared to make the same sort of commitment. Anything else is unjust.

And I’m 100% on the side of “separate but equal isn’t” – because it never is.

Barb and I can go anywhere in the country and have our marriage legally recognized, own property in any state in the expectation that it will pass to our spouse on our death, know that if I’m comatose from an accident in Mississippi she will have the legal right to act as my next of kin. George and Fred, Vermont residents with a civil union, do not have those rights, by (IMHO unconstitutional) Act of Congress. Separate but equal isn’t.

:eek: You’re right. I should choose words more accurately. I don’t believe that opposition to gay marriage makes one a homophobe. I disagree with opposition to gay marriage, but homophobe is a bit further than I should go. Sorry.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids both the rich and the poor to beg for money, sleep under bridges, and steal bread.” - Anatole France

Mrvisible:

They are. Sometimes (or so I have heard) a DR. will induce labor right before the new year so the parents get the tax break.
To answer your other questions: The societal benefits of marriage without children are exactly the same regardless of the couple’s sexes. Therefore, they should get the same deduction, and gay marriages should be recognized under law for this and other purposes. Specifically, sometimes people get divorced. If you were in a gay marriage and you supported your spouse through medical school, and all of a sudden he left you once he started making big bucks, damn straight there should be alimony.

Marriage not being recognized, one party in a gay marriage can get really screwed over, and not have the same legal protection to stand on that a hetero person would have. That’s discrimination.

If there are children involved in a gay marriage, the children might suffer needlessly as a result of a divorce, where they would have been protected had it been recognized.

Not recognizing gay marriage is a slap in the face by the very government those people are citizens of.

The stickiness comes in when we start thinking the exceptions. If we recognize gay marriage must we also recognize polygamy or other unconventional marriage forms?

The estate implications of gay marriages existing in name only to make use of things like the unlimited marital deduction between business partners seeking to evade taxes, also make it sticky. The opportunity exists with regular hetero marriages as well, but becomes much large and more practical by adding a recognized gay marriage as well.

So, I’m pretty much 100% in favor of recognized marriages for gay people. The sticky details can be worked out, or perhaps it’s time that the nature of marriage is redefined from a legal and taxation standpoint as well.

Not being an expert, I’m not sure what the best implementation is. That’s what’s sticky.

How is opposition to gay marraige not homophobic? It’s condescending and heterosexist for a straight person to even have an opinion on something that has absolutely nothing to do with them, let alone a negative one. Who do you think you are that you have say in the lives of millions of people but they have no say in yours? You obviously have a very low opinion of adult gays to have the audacity to say that “because I want it” isn’t a good enough reason. You don’t have to say “I hate fags” to be a homophobe.

Well that’s just plain silly. I have opinions about things that don’t really affect me one way or the other. Am I suppose to just shut up and ignore things that don’t specifically affect me? I’m a heterosexual who thinks that homosexuals should be able to marry. Am I being heterosexist for having an opinion about something that doesn’t affect me?

Marc

Here’s my take.

The government has a role in marriage. Hate to admit it, but it does. The government doesn’t have a role in my sex life or my intent or ability to reproduce…so, here’s my proposal (which will never fly)…

Every human being gets to declare one other human being his partner, with many of the rights and responsibilities currently given to married couples. The partner has to accept and both parties have to be legal adults. This can be dissolved at any time…

In my life, until I was an adult, my mother took this role, and even after I turned 18, she had it for quite a while. Then I got married, and my husband took this role for me. Divorced, and my sister and I took this role for each other. Married again, and my husband and I take this role for each other. Should my husband die, I’d probably give this role back to my Mom.

Who cares who’s having sex with whom? That doesn’t seem relevant given the lack of procreation involved in so many people’s lives (and the lack of partner when procreating in other lives).