# Rendition **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803 "2006-09-07T17:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/1 "2006-09-07T17:52:28Z")
I am extremely surprised that there hasn’t been much raised on the Dope about the admission by Bush that CIA is operating its own ‘interrogation’ centres, where information was most forthcoming when ‘more aggressive’ interviewing techniques had been adopted, we no longer need to suspect, there is no doubt. > **[BBC NEWS | Americas | Bush admits to CIA secret prisons](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5321606.stm)** > > President Bush admits the existence of secret CIA jails as 14 top terror suspects are sent to Guantanamo. Yet another brick in the wall of US lies and atrocities which have been justified by the war on terror. …and now a number of the ‘interviewees’ have been sent to Guantanamo to face military tribunals. It seems to me that it would be impossible to put these persons before a judicial trial as any evidence gathered is highly likely to have been obtained under duress. Given the way the US has behaved, its mission of imposing democracy on Iraq seems even more unlikely, its more like the US is creeping toward the values of Saddam Hussain. I naturally assume that the apologists for torture and human rights abuse, those who think that denial of fair trial, abduction will find ways to justify the US position. I expect it will be along the lines of the rights of the many versus the rights of the individual, and they just will not get it, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/2 "2006-09-07T20:47:37Z")
Look, the right wing blogosphere told us this was all ridiculous lies, so I’m sticking to that, no matter what this “President” says. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/3 "2006-09-07T21:46:39Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I am extremely surprised that there hasn’t been much raised on the Dope about the admission by Bush that CIA is operating its own ‘interrogation’ centres Ex-CIA analyst, and current leader of the group Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (and how’s **that** for a motherhood-and-apple-pie cause, by the way?), [Ray McGovern sez](http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/09/07/the_torturers_apprentice.php) that Bush is bringing this issue into the open now because he has a rather delicate balancing act to maintain: if he can’t successfully continue to make the case that he’s already entitled to authorize this activity, he may need Congress to change the laws so that he will be retroactively entitled to have done so. Otherwise, according to McGovern, he might actually be in some serious legal jeopardy. McGovern says the same sort of thing is going to go down in Bush’s next speech with regard to the warrantless wiretapping. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/4 "2006-09-07T22:35:51Z")
When the story of the secret CIA torture prisons first came out. Bush and Cheney vehemently denied it. Now, he admits it. I’ve lost count of the times GWB has said, “We don’t torture.” He said it when the Abu Ghraib pix came out, he said it when Cheney was twisting arms in the senate to fight the anti-torture law, and now he said it again when he admitted he lied about the secret torture prisons. “Alternative interrogation procedures,” he calls it. He says some of these disappeared prisoners gave up valuable information about terrorism. I guess he could be right; he does occasionally tell the truth. There is now a new manual for the armed forces. It says our side is not allowed to hood, strip, and “waterboard” prisoners. No dogs for intimidation, either. Of course, our noble president says we never did any of those things. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/5 "2006-09-07T22:55:49Z")
[Quote=AskNott] When the story of the secret CIA torture prisons first came out. Bush and Cheney vehemently denied it. Now, he admits it. I’ve lost count of the times GWB has said, “We don’t torture.” [/Quote] Aw, c’mon. Will you Bush-bashers never stop mischaracterizing the President’s remarks? He clearly said “we”, meaning Mr. Bush was never in the same room with the persons who might have subjected prisoners to the techniques banned in the new military manual, persons who I presume are employed by the CIA and are not actually military, and who therefore would probably not be subject to the restrictions listed in this new manual, which I remind you, just came out a couple of days ago and explicitly bans such techniques. By military personnel. From now going forward. I think the above would be clear to anyone who is not so blinded by their Bush-hatred that they can’t see the perfectly obvious. Liberal. Communist. Terrorist-lover. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/6 "2006-09-07T23:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] I am extremely surprised that there hasn’t been much raised on the Dope about the admission by Bush that CIA is operating its own ‘interrogation’ centres. [/QUOTE] Show of hands, people: How many of you really believed there _were no_ interrogation centers? The silence likely stems from the dearth of dropping jaws. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/7 "2006-09-08T01:07:28Z")
The fuckwad currently occupying the office of President was about three miles from me today, talking at Cobb Galleria (Atlanta area). I heard some of his remarks, and he began by saying something like “Thanks to actions taken by this administration, our country is much safer than it was five years ago.” I thought, good idea, opening with a joke. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/8 "2006-09-08T01:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] …Of course, our noble president says we never did any of those things. [/QUOTE] Its rather simple, really. We never did it, and will never do it again. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/9 "2006-09-08T01:35:24Z")
Unless extraordinary circumstances force us to, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/10 "2006-09-08T01:56:07Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Its rather simple, really. We never did it, and will never do it again. [/QUOTE] And it’s entirely coincidental that the president stacked Gitmo with some generally recognized bad evildoers mere weeks before the house takes up devising tribunal protocols for all the inmates. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/11 "2006-09-08T01:58:37Z")
What a fantastic triumph for human rights and American prestige, that prisoners have finally been moved from the secret probably-illegal prisons lacking any oversight to the NON-secret probably-illegal prison lacking any oversight. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/12 "2006-09-08T03:28:22Z")
So now it’s “alternative interrogation,” hmmmm? At the risk of paging a certain Mr G\*dwin, wasn’t there a government a while back which allowed one of its agencies to practice “heightened interrogation?” All in the name of national security, of course, and all nice and legal. (Before you spend too much time sharpening the scythes and pitchforks and boiling the oil, I should point out that the circumstances aren’t remotely similar. It’s just that I can’t seem to find as much traction on this incline as I could not too long ago—and the rhetoric coming out of this Administration doesn’t help my confidence level at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/13 "2006-09-08T03:49:05Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Look, the right wing blogosphere told us this was all ridiculous lies, so I’m sticking to that, no matter what this “President” says. [/QUOTE] I thought the party line was more like, yes, they exist, but we need them, we don’t need to care about human rights, and what we SHOULD be doing is prosecuting reporters for publishing state secrets! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/14 "2006-09-08T04:01:39Z")
[QUOTE=OttoDaFe] At the risk of paging a certain Mr G\*dwin [/QUOTE] No worries, [the president already entered him into the debate](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-4.html): > [@](#): > > Bin Laden and his terrorist allies have made their intentions as clear as Lenin and Hitler before them. Having thus lost the debate, [the president should now abandon Iraq, and let them keep their slaves.](http://eurweb.com/story/eur28468.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/15 "2006-09-08T04:04:05Z")
So a Communist, a Nazi, and a religious fanatic walk into a bar… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/16 "2006-09-08T04:11:13Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Having thus lost the debate, [the president should now abandon Iraq, and let them keep their slaves.](http://eurweb.com/story/eur28468.cfm) [/QUOTE] So, why doesn’t Condy get her boss to invade some countries where slavery is actually a problem? [21st century slaves](http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/17 "2006-09-08T04:30:15Z")
Well \*\*casdave \*\*, I was going around virtually in all threads dealing with torture and pointing to this New Yorker’s report for more than a year and a half: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa\_fact6](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6) > [@](#): > > OUTSOURCING TORTURE > The secret history of America’s “extraordinary rendition” program. That link has become a virtual hand grenade, every single right winger ignored it or refused to post after I referred to that article, How I wish I had a link that would do that in any discussion! I will point out the part that shows one big reason torture should not be used: because it can get an incompetent leader false information that justifies other wars: > [@](#): > > A few months after September 11th, the U.S. gained custody of its first high-ranking Al Qaeda figure, Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. He had run bin Laden’s terrorist training camp in Khalden, Afghanistan, and was detained in Pakistan. Zacarias Moussaoui, who was already in U.S. custody, and Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber, had both spent time at the Khalden camp. At the F.B.I.’s field office in New York, Jack Cloonan, an officer who had worked for the agency since 1972, struggled to maintain control of the legal process in Afghanistan. C.I.A. and F.B.I. agents were vying to take possession of Libi. Cloonan, who worked with Dan Coleman on anti-terrorism cases for many years, said he felt that “neither the Moussaoui case nor the Reid case was a slam dunk.” He became intent on securing Libi’s testimony as a witness against them. He advised his F.B.I. colleagues in Afghanistan to question Libi respectfully, “and handle this like it was being done right here, in my office in New York.” He recalled, “I remember talking on a secure line to them. I told them, ‘Do yourself a favor, read the guy his rights. It may be old-fashioned, but this will come out if we don’t. It may take ten years, but it will hurt you, and the bureau’s reputation, if you don’t. Have it stand as a shining example of what we feel is right.’ ” > > Cloonan’s F.B.I. colleagues advised Libi of his rights and took turns with C.I.A. agents in questioning him. After a few days, F.B.I. officials felt that they were developing a good rapport with him. The C.I.A. agents, however, felt that he was lying to them, and needed tougher interrogation. > > To Cloonan’s dismay, the C.I.A. reportedly rendered Libi to Egypt. He was seen boarding a plane in Afghanistan, restrained by handcuffs and ankle cuffs, his mouth covered by duct tape. Cloonan, who retired from the F.B.I. in 2002, said, “At least we got information in ways that wouldn’t shock the conscience of the court. And no one will have to seek revenge for what I did.” He added, “We need to show the world that we can lead, and not just by military might.” > > After Libi was taken to Egypt, the F.B.I. lost track of him. Yet he evidently played a crucial background role in Secretary of State Colin Powell’s momentous address to the United Nations Security Council in February, 2003, which argued the case for a preëmptive war against Iraq. In his speech, Powell did not refer to Libi by name, but he announced to the world that “a senior terrorist operative” who “was responsible for one of Al Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan” had told U.S. authorities that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two Al Qaeda operatives in the use of “chemical or biological weapons.” > > Last summer, Newsweek reported that Libi, who was eventually transferred from Egypt to Guantánamo Bay, was the source of the incendiary charge cited by Powell, and that he had recanted. By then, the first anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq had passed and the 9/11 Commission had declared that there was no known evidence of a working relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Dan Coleman was disgusted when he heard about Libi’s false confession. “It was ridiculous for interrogators to think Libi would have known anything about Iraq,” he said. “I could have told them that. He ran a training camp. He wouldn’t have had anything to do with Iraq. Administration officials were always pushing us to come up with links, but there weren’t any. The reason they got bad information is that they beat it out of him. You never get good information from someone that way.” > > Most authorities on interrogation, in and out of government, agree that torture and lesser forms of physical coercion succeed in producing confessions. The problem is that these confessions aren’t necessarily true. Three of the Guantánamo detainees released by the U.S. to Great Britain last year, for example, had confessed that they had appeared in a blurry video, obtained by American investigators, that documented a group of acolytes meeting with bin Laden in Afghanistan. As reported in the London Observer, British intelligence officials arrived at Guantánamo with evidence that the accused men had been living in England at the time the video was made. The detainees told British authorities that they had been coerced into making false confessions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/18 "2006-09-08T05:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] So, why doesn’t Condy get her boss to invade some countries where slavery is actually a problem? [21st century slaves](http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/) [/QUOTE] That seems like a good idea at first glance, and there are some who advocate such a course, but it turns out that doing so is exactly analogous to\*\* abandoning the Great Gates of Kiev to the Depredations of Gengis Khan!\*\* :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/19 "2006-09-08T05:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] I am extremely surprised that there hasn’t been much raised on the Dope about the admission by Bush that CIA is operating its own ‘interrogation’ centres, where information was most forthcoming when ‘more aggressive’ interviewing techniques had been adopted, we no longer need to suspect, there is no doubt. [/QUOTE] \ Outrage fatigue ? Og knows I’ve got nothing left. If someone had told me 5 years ago that the US would abduct and torture suspects in secret prisons, I would’ve laughed, made a comment about black helicopters and asked them to adjust their tinfoil hats. Now ? I seem to be unable to muster a reaction. I hope some serious hell wil be raised this fall (and I will be in the fight), but I’m not at all optimistic. The US has lost its way. It’s like watching a really good friend fall for a woman that’s really bad for him. You know it’ll end badly, but pointing it out just antagonizes him. As for the apologists, give them some time. The mental gymnastics involved in changing viewpoint from “Secret prisons are a vicious leftwing media lie made up to smear the president” to “Secret prisons are an obvious necessity and the vicious leftwing media are just out to smear the president” are dangerous to undertake without a bit of warm-up. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803/20 "2006-09-08T09:01:41Z")
Oh conservatives like that it happens, make no mistake. What your conservative doesn’t like is being made to talk about it. Like a lot of things really. When you have a chat that reflects on rendition, kidnapping and so forth, other sorts of phrases start to breathe their last. So look on the bright side, we shouldn’t be hearing anymore of the following obsolescences: - - home of the brave - honorable military service - we didn’t start this war but by God we’re going to finish it - …\* Doubtless there is a whole dialect fading into disuse at this very moment. Thankfully. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rendition/371803.md?page=2)