# Renewable Reparations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594 "2020-09-14T17:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/21 "2020-09-16T03:08:38Z")
No, we have not. There is no DNA test, nothing that can determine ‘blackness’, except self determination or racist "one drop’ “tests”. And such determination is racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/22 "2020-09-16T03:19:21Z")
Or maybe real research and investigation. Similar to how claims of survivorship of internment from the 40s could be investigated and verified. Maybe they lived in a redlined neighborhood, or were unjustly arrested, or weren’t able to go to a good school, or were denied housing or a job, because of racism/discrimination. These things can be investigated. They’re not fictions. What are you afraid of from possibly just researching this stuff? It shouldn’t be scary. It’s just history and fact finding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/23 "2020-09-16T03:21:38Z")
Somehow even the idea reparations is so scary to some folks that they invent ridiculous reasons as to why we can’t even look into the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/24 "2020-09-16T03:31:54Z")
The 1940s were only 70 years ago, and we kept meticulous records, even so, the reparations didnt work that well. The 1870’s are 150 years ago and the records for slaves are a joke. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/25 "2020-09-16T03:32:41Z")
Because making people think they are gonna get a check for $10,000,000 when they aint gonna get nothing is cruel. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/26 "2020-09-16T03:43:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 19 **6** 5? > > And you know, Blacks wont accept this as there are few records for slaves. I’m using 1965 because racist immigration restrictions prior to that makes it unlikely that a black person in the USA at the time wasn’t the descendants of slaves. Sure it’s a little over-inclusive but not overly so. Certainly not as over-inclusive as affirmative action is today. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Because making people think they are gonna get a check for $10,000,000 when they aint gonna get nothing is cruel. How did we get from participation in a homestead program to a check in the mail? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/27 "2020-09-16T03:53:24Z")
Redlining was in living memory. So were many other forms of discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/28 "2020-09-16T03:53:49Z")
I agree. Luckily, black people aren’t stupid, so this isn’t a concern at all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/29 "2020-09-16T04:31:03Z")
There are no lands left worth homesteading, and the people who support Reparations are talking checks- for millions. Most BLM land is at best worth grazing, but since there is no water, people cant live on it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/30 "2020-09-16T04:31:59Z")
Nope, but people are stupid, and if pundits keep saying reparations are gonna bring big checks, of course people will believe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/31 "2020-09-16T04:32:46Z")
And you know what? Blacks who were redlined could and did sue and collected large sums. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/32 "2020-09-16T10:06:37Z")
Cite? There have been lawsuits, but they only resulted in banks agreeing to provide mortgage services to undeserved areas. Nothing that corrects the harm done during redlining. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/33 "2020-09-16T10:07:36Z")
I’m unaware of pundits saying anything like this. Except, maybe, for liars like Hannity. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/34 "2020-09-16T14:29:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are no lands left worth homesteading, The sun doesn’t shine there? The wind doesn’t blow there? > [@DrDeth](#): > > nd the people who support Reparations are talking checks- for millions. Do you have a cite for this because the plans I have seen to appraoch giving every black person millions of dollars. They might value the pain and suffering of their ancestors at millions but they don’t advocate giving their descendants millions each. > [@](#): > > Most BLM land is at best worth grazing, but since there is no water, people cant live on it. There is enough water for people to live (and run solar/wind farms), there isn’t enough land for agriculture or ranching. This won’t be free but we pour so much money pushing a rope in alternative energy, this would be a way to get our alternative energy production up to scale now that we are starting to see technology that is worth scaling up. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/35 "2020-09-16T15:51:01Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The conversation on racial justice has moved from “equality of opportunity” when i was younger towards “there is no such thing of equality of opportunity so we must have equality of outcome” Equality of outcome is something that you can’t impose or engineer; the best you can do is have equality of opportunity with allowances/help for underprivileged groups. Otherwise, you’re stuck trying to just define equality of outcome, and then you have the problem of maintaining that equality. I mean, you could do it really simplistically by defining an “equal outcome” as an income and just subsidizing people up to that amount. But that wouldn’t really help; does anyone seriously think that if you just boosted all black families up to say… the median household income, that in the next generation or two, they’d be just like white families in terms of income? Of course not. They’ll have to have similar values on education, work, etc… or that subsidy will either become a permanent thing, or not actually have been helpful. What I’d propose instead would be some sort of fund intended for stuff like college scholarships, small business loans, home loans, grants, subsidies, etc… with different credit requirements/repayment requirements, with the intention of helping the black community bootstrap themselves. It’s not something that can be imposed from outside, I suspect. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I would be satisfied with any proof of black ancestry in the USA prior to 1965 as evidence of being a descendant of slaves. 1965? That’s way too recent. Maybe 1940 or so makes more sense. And where do you draw the line as to ‘black ancestry’? That seems pretty fraught with the potential for fraud, or at the very least, people who don’t need help with equality of outcome taking advantage on the public dime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/36 "2020-09-16T17:42:45Z")
The rain dont fall there. And People living in urban areas are gonna be able to ranch 40 acres of desolate ranchland? > **[The math on reparations: total cost of $51 trillion and a tripling of the...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-math-on-reparations-total-cost-of-51-trillion-and-a-tripling-of-the-national-debt-2019-06-27)** > > Reparations would have to include payments to African-Americans and Native Americans. [https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/bigideas/why-we-need-reparations-for-black-americans/](https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/bigideas/why-we-need-reparations-for-black-americans/) _ **Individual payments for descendants of enslaved Black Americans** _ > **[‘Black communities have been robbed’: Will reparations for black Americans...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/black-communities-have-been-robbed-will-reparations-for-black-americans-finally-get-real-consideration-2020-06-08)** > > Just 26% of respondents to a new poll say the government should pay money to black Americans descended from slaves, with black Americans far more likely than... _Perry isn’t the only one sounding the call for reparations. Black Entertainment Television (BET) founder Bob Johnson this month called for $14 trillion in reparations to atone for slavery, government-sponsored discrimination and “permanent emotional trauma” experienced by black Americans. The proposed reparations, [he said in a statement](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/robert-l-johnson-founder-of-black-entertainment-television-and-the-rlj-companies-issues-statement-and-proposal-for-full-black-american-reparations-301068343.html), would take the form of direct cash payments over 10 to 20 years to descendants of African-American enslaved people._ ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/37 "2020-09-16T18:15:34Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Equality of outcome is something that you can’t impose or engineer; the best you can do is have equality of opportunity with allowances/help for underprivileged groups. Otherwise, you’re stuck trying to just define equality of outcome, and then you have the problem of maintaining that equality. I mean, you could do it really simplistically by defining an “equal outcome” as an income and just subsidizing people up to that amount. But that wouldn’t really help; does anyone seriously think that if you just boosted all black families up to say… the median household income, that in the next generation or two, they’d be just like white families in terms of income? Of course not. They’ll have to have similar values on education, work, etc… or that subsidy will either become a permanent thing, or not actually have been helpful. I think the folks pushing equality of outcome have a fairly clear definition of equality of outcome. I think that homesteading probably turned a lot of poor white families into middle class white families with enough wealth to pass down from generation to generation. I don’t know why a homesteading act for blacks wouldn’t have a similar effect on black families. The limitations on transferring homesteads and forcing these families to work to eke a living from these homestead might have created a different attitude in those families than just giving them a check for the value of the homestead. > [@bump](#): > > What I’d propose instead would be some sort of fund intended for stuff like college scholarships, small business loans, home loans, grants, subsidies, etc… with different credit requirements/repayment requirements, with the intention of helping the black community bootstrap themselves. It’s not something that can be imposed from outside, I suspect. I was just presenting one idea, maybe there are better ideas out there but I see a dangerous shift of liberal ideology from equality of opportunity to equality of outcome. This is frequently justified on the very compelling argument that blacks can never really achieve equality of opportunity in light of the history of slavery and then the rationale is applied to all sorts of populations that do not have a history of slavery. > [@bump](#): > > 1965? That’s way too recent. Maybe 1940 or so makes more sense. And where do you draw the line as to ‘black ancestry’? That seems pretty fraught with the potential for fraud, or at the very least, people who don’t need help with equality of outcome taking advantage on the public dime. I chose 1965 because that is when we opened up immigration. We did not have a lot of black immigrants to this country before then. So I do not see how 1940 is much better than 1965 and i think the documentation in 1965 is much much better in 1965. I think that anyone with a colorable claim to black ancestry before 1965 that is willing to move to montana to run a solar farm is not really “taking advantage” any more than the white homesteaders were “taking advantage” A black doctor in nyc is not going to drop his practice to go run a wind farm in kansas. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/38 "2020-09-16T19:06:58Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I think the folks pushing equality of outcome have a fairly clear definition of equality of outcome. > > I think that homesteading probably turned a lot of poor white families into middle class white families with enough wealth to pass down from generation to generation. I don’t know why a homesteading act for blacks wouldn’t have a similar effect on black families. The limitations on transferring homesteads and forcing these families to work to eke a living from these homestead might have created a different attitude in those families than just giving them a check for the value of the homestead. Sure, but like I was saying, it’s still just setting up the community to be successful while not actually generating or compelling equality of outcome. I think that could be better achieved through some sort of fund/funds that could be paid for out of say… the wind farms on public land mentioned above, or through selling Federal land, or whatever. That would reduce the outcry that would more than likely send any tax-money based reparations plan down in flames. I’m also not so sure that the Homestead Act was the primary generator of the white middle class. Certainly it helped some people like you suggest, but I’d bet it didn’t even affect the majority of people at the time, much less now. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/39 "2020-09-16T19:11:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The rain dont fall there. And People living in urban areas are gonna be able to ranch 40 acres of desolate ranchland? It’s solar panels. They would be trained to maintain solar panels. We aren’t asking them to birth cattle and plow fields. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Perry isn’t the only one sounding the call for reparations. Black Entertainment Television (BET) founder Bob Johnson this month called for $14 trillion in reparations to atone for slavery, government-sponsored discrimination and “permanent emotional trauma” experienced by black Americans. The proposed reparations, [he said in a statement](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/robert-l-johnson-founder-of-black-entertainment-television-and-the-rlj-companies-issues-statement-and-proposal-for-full-black-american-reparations-301068343.html), would take the form of direct cash payments over 10 to 20 years to descendants of African-American enslaved people. The fact that we cannot pay does not mean that we do not owe. I am saying we can make an offer in satisfaction of that debt. Maybe it’s not the most that could be claimed but maybe it is a reasonable offer in satisfaction of the debt. I think the millions of dollars per black person is hard to justify and politically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594/40 "2020-09-16T19:21:41Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure, but like I was saying, it’s still just setting up the community to be successful while not actually generating or compelling equality of outcome. I think that could be better achieved through some sort of fund/funds that could be paid for out of say… the wind farms on public land mentioned above, or through selling Federal land, or whatever. That would reduce the outcry that would more than likely send any tax-money based reparations plan down in flames. > > I’m also not so sure that the Homestead Act was the primary generator of the white middle class. Certainly it helped some people like you suggest, but I’d bet it didn’t even affect the majority of people at the time, much less now. I admit it’s a modest proposal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renewable-reparations/920594.md?page=3)