# Renouncing US citizenship to get a bank account **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691 "2013-10-30T21:38:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/61 "2013-10-31T18:46:33Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > This is an article about the local situation: > > [Banks lock out Americans over new tax law](http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/15/news/banks-americans-lockout/) This may be a stupid question, but since when do laws passed by the United States congress have any legal authority over a bank operating outside of the United States’ borders? In other words, why don’t the foreign banks just tell the US government to piss off? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/62 "2013-10-31T18:49:21Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > I loved Praha! > > Can you set up a corporation in the CZE and use that? I know that when I wanted to buy a small apartment in Praha 10 that I could not as a person, as I was not a citizen. However, it is posisble for a foreigner to setup a company in the CZE which can then own property. So, that would be my suggestion. > > Form a company in CZE and see if you can get a bank account that way for deposits and withdrawls. I had to use a Czech company as well to buy the home we own - that is getting to be a problem too with new Czech residency laws - they are no longer allowing that method for mortgages and even as a US director of a Czech company banking is becoming a problem. The consulate is effectively useless. We are self employed so there is no company to help us obtain various services. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/63 "2013-10-31T18:51:31Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > This may be a stupid question, but since when do laws passed by the United States congress have any legal authority over a bank operating outside of the United States’ borders? > > In other words, why don’t the foreign banks just tell the US government to piss off? They certainly can - but the US can prevent them from buying US securities and USD as well. It can also prevent them from offering Mastercard and Visa cards to their clients. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/64 "2013-10-31T18:59:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I mean that the practice of writing a check, or buying a money order, and mailing it in to pay a bill is becoming far more rare in other countries than it is here in the US. Direct debit is virtually the standard in most countries overseas. > > Also in the U.S., even though it is much less common now, many utility companies allow people to show up and pay in cash. Sorry, I though you meant that he could pay by mail - cheques still need a bank account. Canada, IIRC, does not have problems with Americans having accounts. (They do with IRanians, but that’s a different thread). I think they ask for a Social Insurnace Number (like the SS number) and I’m not sure what happens if you don’t have one. A lot of Canadians are dual Americans, and FACTA has created a dilemma for them. Until now, many have skipped or not realized they need to file US tax returns. the deadline was pretty sudden, and the number of cross-border tax accountants limited. Request a delay and put yourself on the radar, or ignore it and risk getting nailed next time you visit the USA? There is also an “assets over $100,000” declaration. A lot of them may have home equity or RRSP (like an IRA) that exceeds this. Most Canadian banks have subsidiaries in the US market (TD Bank anyone?) so they already conform to US reporting practices. They will have to report all US citizen assets to the IRS, assuming they know if someone is a US Citizen. One suggestion I saw was to move your assets to a small local credit union which has no US entanglement. This is a congress which had no problem dumping millions of workers out on the street over ideological disputes. Do you think they care about some expat citizens who probably never vote anyway? the alleged excuse for the law was to catch millionaires evading taxes and stashing assets overseas, but obviously even when they saw the problem, they still did not fix it. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/65 "2013-10-31T19:03:55Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Yes. Bank transfer is used for everything. Even buying furniture, they expect you to pay by bank transfer and for some things it is the only way to pay (property tax for example). I don’t know about the Czech Republic or Dubai, but in Germany where the situation is generally similar banks offer bank transfers for non-customers. It is inconvenient because you have to do it in person and the fees are steep (EUR 5-10 vs. nothing) but if that’s what it takes to keep the lights on then it can be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/66 "2013-10-31T19:32:49Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > I don’t know about the Czech Republic or Dubai, but in Germany where the situation is generally similar banks offer bank transfers for non-customers. It is inconvenient because you have to do it in person and the fees are steep (EUR 5-10 vs. nothing) but if that’s what it takes to keep the lights on then it can be worth it. I tries to get a money order in Austria as a non-customer (Erste Bank) and it took a few hours. They made it clear that they were making a special exception this once. The money order was to pay a visa fee at an Embassy in Vienna. Maybe it is easier in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/67 "2013-10-31T19:46:44Z")
There are banks - ING Direct comes to mind ([http://www.ingdirect.ca/en/index.html](http://www.ingdirect.ca/en/index.html) ) - which serve Canadians without any local branches, strictly through the internet. A quick search of their website shows no indication of whether they discriminate against people from outside Canada, the setup seems predicated on having an existing Canadian bank account. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/68 "2013-10-31T22:52:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I wonder how this will affect Peace Corps volunteers, who get paid in local currency to the localest local banks in the world. For that matter how do American diplomats handle stuff like this overseas? Are they able to get buy with only their American bank accounts or do they open whatever the local equivalent of a checking account is? What about the embassies & consulates themselves? They have bills to pay too. It’s be delightfully ironic if FATCA started interfering with operating diplomatic missions. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/69 "2013-11-01T00:29:57Z")
Desert Nomad have you talked to a local financial consultant? If there are any UAE banks that will still accept US accounts, they will know it. Googling a bit I found an article that indicates that HSBC was going to accept US citizen accounts as long as the customers provided all the information needed. > **[Some banks turn away US citizens for failing to comply the US tax laws](https://gulfnews.com/business/banking/some-banks-turn-away-us-citizens-for-failing-to-comply-the-us-tax-laws-1.1203327)** > > US Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act comes into effect from January 1, 2014 ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/70 "2013-11-01T04:47:34Z")
Don’t know what utility bills are going to become impossible, but according to this site one of the methods available for paying your electric bill in Prague is cash, at the post office. [http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/money/czech-utilities-electricity/](http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/money/czech-utilities-electricity/) ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/71 "2013-11-01T05:16:58Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Desert Nomad have you talked to a local financial consultant? If there are any UAE banks that will still accept US accounts, they will know it. Googling a bit I found an article that indicates that HSBC was going to accept US citizen accounts as long as the customers provided all the information needed. > > [Some banks turn away US citizens for failing to comply the US tax laws](http://gulfnews.com/business/banking/some-banks-turn-away-us-citizens-for-failing-to-comply-the-us-tax-laws-1.1203327) Yup. I am aware of HSBC as we used to have an account there. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/72 "2013-11-01T05:31:36Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Yup. I am aware of HSBC as we used to have an account there. Are you saying that HSBC already kicked you out and closed your account for being a US citizen? Here’s another one, apparently BNY Mellon is actively expanding looking to accept US accounts overseas. > **[US Banking Giant Steps In To Rescue FATCA Refugees - Pars Herald](https://www.parsherald.com/us-banking-giant-steps-in-to-rescue-fatca-refugees/2092/)** > > All is not lost for American expats looking for overseas banking as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) rumbles towards starting next year. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/73 "2013-11-01T13:22:57Z")
I’m wondering why US banks aren’t railing against this if they’ll have to start reporting local assets of foreign nationals back to their homelands (assuming that they have or will eventually have an IGA in place that requires reporting reciprocity). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/74 "2013-11-01T15:30:17Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > I’m wondering why US banks aren’t railing against this if they’ll have to start reporting local assets of foreign nationals back to their homelands (assuming that they have or will eventually have an IGA in place that requires reporting reciprocity). The USA is pretty much unique in requiring its citizens to file tax returns even if they never set foot in the country, have no real connection, left long ago, etc. Canada, for example - as long as you have severed ties with the country - you do not need to file taxes except for the eyar you left and the year you come back. “Severed ties” means you have no real connecton - i.e. no property, no furniture or auto in storage, no ongoing jobs or pay from Canada, etc. If you have indeed “left the country” you do not have to pay tax on foreign income. (Alos IIRC if you owe no taxes in Canada, there is no penalty for failing to file or filing late). The USA, by contrast, has a lot of millionaires and a bee in their bonnet about these guys skipping the country or hiding their assets overseas. All US citizens must file taxes, and along with this, must declare any foreign assets over (I think) $100,000. This covers a lot of retirement accounts and house equity. Whether you owe taxes or not, failure to file and failure to declare are offenses subject to penalties. So the reporting issues are mainly all about US citizens and their assets, and their spouses’ assets. Most other countries don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/75 "2013-11-01T16:55:38Z")
Contact a local lawyer (or other trustworthy agent), about arraigning to have your account expanded to a joint account, (or open a new one) with the agent named as a jointer, and have the account in their name. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/76 "2013-11-01T17:11:04Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Contact a local lawyer (or other trustworthy agent), about arraigning to have your account expanded to a joint account, (or open a new one) with the agent named as a jointer, and have the account in their name. That won’t work, because the bank is refusing to have American citizens as account holders. Their burden of compliance is the same whether the Americans hold accounts in their own name only or joint accounts. You could have a trustworth agent open the account in his or her name only, but that seems like a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/77 "2013-11-01T17:28:35Z")
Business accounts, joint accounts and all other manner of other arrangements won’t help. FATCA requires reporting of accounts in a Foreign Financial Institution over a minimum balance over which the American citizen has signatory control. Doesn’t matter whose money it is. Do you, as a US citizen residing in France, have Power of Attorney over your French citizen father-in-law’s financial affairs? You must disclose his accounts in your FATCA filing if you have signatory control. Do you, as a US citizen residing in Dubai, have an account for your small business over which you have signatory control? Yes, you must disclose this in a FATCA filing. Do you, as a US citizen residing in Canada, have CDs in your retirement account at a Canadian bank? Those are subject to FATCA filing too. To escape FATCA reporting you must not have signatory control of the foreign account. An irrevocable trust might do the job. \* \*I am not a trust lawyer. I am not your trust lawyer. ETA: Apparently an irrevocable trust won’t do it according to the nice folks at [Deloitte](http://www.deloitte.com/assets/dcom-unitedstates/local%20assets/documents/tax/us_tax_fatca_faqs_061711.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/78 "2013-11-01T21:49:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > For the last half-century, anyone with a middle class lifestyle here is pretty much required to have a bank account. Actually a large fraction of both the lower class and the middle class live paycheck to paycheck. So all you need to do is to cash your payroll check at the issuing bank, a local grocery store or a check-cashing place and pay your bills either in person or by a money order. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/79 "2013-11-02T00:08:03Z")
If he does get a payroll check. I don’t know his situation, but in Thailand direct deposit is mandatory at many if not most if not all companies. I don’t think I’ve ever even heard of payroll checks since I left the US. In fact, here they’ll even specify the bank you _must_ open an account with just to receive your salary. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/80 "2013-11-02T03:36:12Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The USA is pretty much unique in requiring its citizens to file tax returns even if they never set foot in the country, have no real connection, left long ago, etc. I’m thinking more along the lines of foreign nationals who reside in their own country (so they should be paying taxes there) but use the US as an offshore tax haven. After a bit of digging I came across [an article](http://www.international-adviser.com/profiles-and-analysis/analysis/us-banking-lobby-urges-congress-to-challenge) that brings up the issue: > [@](#): > > Data gathered by the Tax Justice Network (TJN), a non-profit, UK-based organisation that campaigns for transparency and disclosure in international financial services, pegs the total amount of assets managed by US financial institutions for “non-residents” at more than [$3T]. The TJN concludes that the US is therefore by far the world’s biggest “offshore” banking destination. And further down in that same article I see my other question answered - the banking lobby IS annoyed by the IGAs and to a lesser extent, by FATCA itself: > [@](#): > > Now the concern has spread to the US banking industry, as it has begun to realise that like its overseas counterparts, it stands to lose out as well. What makes this interesting is that unlike foreign banks, which have little power in the halls of the US Congress, US banks comprise a formidable lobby group. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691.md?page=5)