# Renouncing US citizenship to get a bank account **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691 "2013-10-30T21:38:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/101 "2013-11-06T16:17:18Z")
Every week of the year, citizens of dozens of countries give up _their_ citizenship when they become American citizens. Are they also “beyond contemptible”? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/102 "2013-11-06T16:28:50Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I find it utterly appalling that anyone would give up their American citizenship for any reason. It is beyond contemptible. > > Threadshit complete. Like others I would ask for an explanation but since you declare upfront that you are just threadshitting I suppose no explanation is needed and your only intention is to threadshit. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/103 "2013-11-06T16:34:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Every week of the year, citizens of dozens of countries give up _their_ citizenship when they become American citizens. Are they also “beyond contemptible”? If not, why not? Well, not really because most countries do not require renouncing their citizenship to take another. Even with countries which will revoke their citizenship if you take another citizenship, like China, one can generally get around it by being careful that they don’t find out. But I am baffled that anyone would consider it contemptible to renounce a citizenship, specially when it is causing you problems to hold it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/104 "2013-11-06T16:40:12Z")
Well, part of the [US naturalization oath](http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-test/naturalization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america) renounces any existing citizenship whether or not that country considers you to have done so. (“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.”) We in the US celebrate it when immigrants swear this oath and become US citizen. Should their former countrymen and countrywomen be spitting upon them (presumably figuratively) for giving up their citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/105 "2013-11-06T16:46:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Well, part of the [US naturalization oath](http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-test/naturalization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america) renounces any existing citizenship whether or not that country considers you to have done so. (“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.”) We’ve gone over this many times. It just means that the USA does not officially recognize other citizenships one may hold (other countries may do the same) but it does not forbid one from holding other nationalities and, in fact, millions of Americans hold other nationalities as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/106 "2013-11-06T16:52:17Z")
I was attempting to find out if the contempt goes both ways; for US citizens who give up their citizenship for other countries, and citizens of other countries who acquire US citizenship. I get the sense that it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/107 "2013-11-06T16:54:26Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > We’ve gone over this many times. It just means that the USA does not officially recognize other citizenships one may hold (other countries may do the same) but it does not forbid one from holding other nationalities and, in fact, millions of Americans hold other nationalities as well. For clarity, in part because an individual can’t renounce a citizenship merely by making a declaration. There’s paperwork and probably a fee, just as there is with the US. For whatever reason, the process of naturalization in the US does not require its new citizens to follow through. They couldn’t require renunciation of prior citizenships before granting US citizenship because that would require applicants to be stateless, and requiring it afterward is probably prohibitive in terms of tracking and enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/108 "2013-11-06T17:04:18Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was attempting to find out if the contempt goes both ways; for US citizens who give up their citizenship for other countries, and citizens of other countries who acquire US citizenship. I get the sense that it does not. Yeah, I gotcha. I was just clarifying that particular tangential point. The thing is that people of other nationalities have no reason to renounce it because the countries do not make their life difficult like America does. Only America creates this problem to its citizens abroad. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/109 "2013-11-06T17:07:55Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > For clarity, in part because an individual can’t renounce a citizenship merely by making a declaration. There’s paperwork and probably a fee, just as there is with the US. For whatever reason, the process of naturalization in the US does not require its new citizens to follow through. They couldn’t require renunciation of prior citizenships before granting US citizenship because that would require applicants to be stateless, and requiring it afterward is probably prohibitive in terms of tracking and enforcement. Does not seem to be a problem for China. As soon as they find out you have another citizenship you lose your Chinese citizenship. And they are so kind they don’t charge a fee and they do all the paperwork themselves. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/110 "2013-11-06T19:32:54Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I find it utterly appalling that anyone would give up their American citizenship for any reason. It is beyond contemptible. > > Threadshit complete. The only thing I would find appalling is for someone to become stateless voluntarily. That is truly a dreadful thing to contemplate. I happened to be at the United Nations in New York when they had an exhibit on the stateless people of the world and their problems, and the UN’s role in trying to eliminate it. It’s not a pretty picture. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/111 "2013-11-06T20:46:53Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > The only thing I would find appalling is for someone to become stateless voluntarily. For certain values of “voluntarily”. I would not consider this is the case of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/112 "2013-11-07T13:14:26Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The US government must be aware of the legion of problems this is causing. Does anyone know if _anyone_ is trying to address these? Even if it’s a lone senator or congressman? I live, fortunately or unfortunately, in the country where probably most of the original US tax evasion took place. Things aren’t pretty in the banking sector these days, and I know lots of Americans who have had their accounts pulled. However, there are still a number of banks that do do business with Americans, so the situation is not as dire as it is for the OP. But on the point above, from what I have heard, the US authorities are quick to point out that they have not done anything to prohibit Americans from having overseas accounts; it is the local banks that have taken this decision. Their view is that it isn’t the fault of the US that these banks prefer to toss out Americans than to take ‘simple’ measures that Uncle Sam isn’t robbed blind. So I don’t think there is a lot of sympathy for us back in the homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/113 "2013-11-07T13:25:46Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I went into my British bank last year, where I had opened my account as an American, and brought my other passport and asked them to change my citizenship. They thought I was strange, but they did it. The field only had an option for one citizenship. I’m sure the account history shows that I was an American, but as far as the bank is concerned the only principal on the account is a Canadian. Actually, I am surprised that worked for you **Dr Drake**. Where I am living we received forms last year from all of our banks requiring us to declare that my wife and I were not “American persons” (I think that was the term). I don’t remember the criteria exactly, but they were really broad. Basically anyone who is a US citizen, single or dual, a Green card holder, or married to a citizen or green card holder\* More recently, some friends of ours, he French and she American, were turned down for a mortgage because of her nationality. And I don’t think it would have been an option for him to put the mortgage under his name either. - Please don’t hold me to this. It was a while ago and we failed the test easily so I had no reason to dig into the details, but I remember that it seemed to me at the time that it would be hard for anyone with a US connection to escape the net ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/114 "2013-11-07T13:33:55Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > Actually, I am surprised that worked for you **Dr Drake**. Where I am living we received forms last year from all of our banks requiring us to declare that my wife and I were not “American persons” (I think that was the term). I don’t remember the criteria exactly, but they were really broad. Basically anyone who is a US citizen, single or dual, a Green card holder, or married to a citizen or green card holder\* > > More recently, some friends of ours, he French and she American, were turned down for a mortgage because of her nationality. And I don’t think it would have been an option for him to put the mortgage under his name either. > > - Please don’t hold me to this. It was a while ago and we failed the test easily so I had no reason to dig into the details, but I remember that it seemed to me at the time that it would be hard for anyone with a US connection to escape the net Sorry, on further reflection I don’t think they included marriage to an American as a criterion (and just missed the edit window). But an American would not be able to hold a joint account with a non-American. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/115 "2013-11-07T13:43:31Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > I don’t remember the criteria exactly, but they were really broad. Basically anyone who is a US citizen, single or dual, a Green card holder, or married to a citizen or green card holder\* Not only that but more because the USA will consider some persons as residents for tax purposes even if they are not residents for immigration purposes so not having a green card is not enough to be sure a person might not be considered a US resident for tax purposes. Also, Americans married to foreigners and living abroad would do best to renounce their American citizenship because otherwise they and their spouses are obligated to file tax returns which most don’t do. Up until now the US Government did not seem to care too much but I expect things will change when they start arresting persons at the border because they failed to file a tax return while being married to an American citizen. I expect most Americans abroad will just continue to do what they have done until now until a few cases make headline news and people start taking notice. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/116 "2013-11-08T03:05:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Every week of the year, citizens of dozens of countries give up _their_ citizenship when they become American citizens. Are they also “beyond contemptible”? If not, why not? I wouldn’t throw around terms like “beyond contemptible,” but I do see a difference between giving up US citizenship and giving up, say, Latvian or Andorran citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/117 "2013-11-08T03:47:32Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I wouldn’t throw around terms like “beyond contemptible,” but I do see a difference between giving up US citizenship and giving up, say, Latvian or Andorran citizenship. Which is what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/118 "2013-11-08T03:52:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Which is what, exactly? Be serious. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/119 "2013-11-08T03:57:16Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Be serious. I am perfectly serious. Why not? The only nationality you can give up is the nationality you happen to have. I don’t see why, if someone has Latvian nationality, surrendering it is, for them, terribly different from surrendering French nationality for a French person, or US nationality for an American. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691/120 "2013-11-08T04:36:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I wouldn’t throw around terms like “beyond contemptible,” but I do see a difference between giving up US citizenship and giving up, say, Latvian or Andorran citizenship. I’m not sure what point you were trying to make here. Latvia is part of the EU so Latvian citizenship lets you work anywhere in the EU, it’s quite a valuable citizenship to have. Andorra is one of the richest countries in EU with a GDP per capita of $53K. Again valuable citizenship to have. You might have a point if you were to use Chad or DR Congo citizenship or another of the poorest nations that doesn’t give you any rights to work elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-us-citizenship-to-get-a-bank-account/672691.md?page=7)