# Renouncing your only citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315 "2012-01-03T23:39:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/41 "2012-01-08T09:57:48Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ve lived abroad longer than you and have also never ever experienced anything that could even remotely be considered a hardship due solely to the fact of being an American. Just opened yet another bank account in my name last month If you can open an account in a country where you are a non-resident, in a respected banking country (all countries of europe, for example), tell me the name of the bank. Then I will drop all talk of this renouncing. Go ahead, give it a try! And you seem to have missed what I said: _I found a place who would open an account for me, but only if I signed a waiver to release information to the IRS. WTF_! How is that fair to my host country? I don’t live in America, haven’t for many years. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/42 "2012-01-08T10:17:32Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I was able to open accounts in Dubai, Czech Republic and Switzerland at various times, but not always with the first bank I tired. > > My reason for leaving the US was to buy health insurance which was impossible at home. I am now covered everywhere in the world except the USA. In the 10 years I have been gone, I have invested over half a million dollars in the Czech Republic and UAE as well as hired an employee. > > I figure it is America’s loss. My reason for leaving the US is that I was sick of hearing about the colour coded terror alerts. But I didn’t like the “overall” fear-based propaganda. Looking back, leaving was the best thing I ever did. I doubt I would have remained employed there past 2008. Do you know the IRS filing requirements if you have a business overseas? **They EXPECT you to work in a foreign country to pay social security there, and pay taxes in BOTH countries!** Gimme a break! This is another reason to renounce as well. People can say “Oh, there’s credits.” Tax credits just ensure you pay the higher of the 2 systems. They don’t even use \*GAAP \*on small businesses here. Knowing this, I just put the business in my wife’s name and started. I have around 15 employees now. I invested less in the beginning, but I reinvest everything. I want to grow and expand to other cities, but it comes back to these IRS filing requirements that actually existed pre-FACTA. If I’m “the brains” behind everything, so why can’t I put things in my name without having to fill out impossible-to-fill-out forms in a place where I don’t live anymore? Once again, American overseas is stunted. I live a very simple life because I reinvest everything (technically my wife does ;)) I wouldn’t be surprised if I have 200 employees in the next 3-4 years. A country like America, who only makes it **MORE** difficult to live overseas, can shove it as far as I’m concerned. Sure, there are MANY Americans who go overseas who are happy with 1 checking account where they live and never having a business. What I am saying does NOT apply to them. Since this topic is about renouncing only citizenship, these are the reasons I want to renounce. Basically, it boils down to being controlled by a government where I don’t live anymore, and don’t intend to live again. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/43 "2012-01-08T11:04:28Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > ac, > can i ask where you are living…and how much better you like it than america? > > again: FASCINATING. you’re living out a fantasy of mine… dontbesojumpy, First, lemme tell you it is WHOLE lot more difficult than you think. The last American who came to my city stayed here for about 3 months. He couldn’t find a job and he was burning through his savings, so he left. I see that repeatedly, over and over again. Just take a look at the expat forums from all around the world. Only retired people seem to be the only group with “staying power” because they receive $$$ every month. Overall, the average I see people staying in a foreign country is about 3-4 years. Then they pack up and go back where they came from. This doesn’t just apply to Americans, but to anyone who comes from another country. The being American just makes it a little more restrictive though, nowadays, at least for long-term success and surival abroad. I would be DELIGHTED to know about Americans with businesses abroad (whether it’s actually in their name or not). I know there are some, but not many. Second, look at the different language and cultural issues. It’s not easy to become **truly fluent** in another language. In some cultures, ripping people off is the favourite past-time. How would you deal with that? I could go on all day long about life in a foreign country speaking a different language all day long, and dealing with cultural and legal pitfalls… Even look at the original post about Gorgulski from [nostate.com](http://nostate.com). If you look at his site, he’s a translator and asking for donations. I could be wrong, but I bet he’s practically destitute because doing translations is hard work with LOW pay. I think what he did was just a publicity stunt to try to get attention; I wouldn’t do that, even though I don’t like the American government. But since he renounced US Citizenship, do I think it will adversely effect his life? Nope. I doubt it. There are many destitute people in America collecting welfare checks. **If anything, Gorgulski is saving the American taxpayer money.** (Haha, this is a funny argument, which makes it even more unthinkable of why renouncing is so difficult. They should just require a simple phone call, or notarised letter, than that’s it :D) But back to your original questions, most people just get a tourist visa, and go “stay” in a foreign country for a while. The majority leave before the tourist visa expires. And 99% are gone within 3-4 years. But whatever you do, don’t do what Gorgulski did. **It isn’t worth it**. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/44 "2012-01-08T11:19:00Z")
_can i ask where you are living…and how much better you like it than america?_ Ok, now I see that even in a big post, I didn’t answer your question. You can figure out where I am from the numbers in my name. **Do I like it?** Very much. Before I took the leap, I felt like America was becoming a police state with nothing but a fear-based culture. On top of that, Americans have to be too concerned with hurting someone else’s feelings that they end up not _living_ and enjoying life like people in other countries. Just my 2cents. I’m not trying to “offend” anyone. I think it’s stupid that I even have to renounce since no other country in the world tries to micro-manage their citizens abroad like America does. But I’ll do it to have complete happiness where I live now. All this has really done is create a dislike for America, for me, and thousands of other people. After all this, I have no desire to go back there, even to visit my parents. I told them they can come here, or… Skype! ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/45 "2012-01-08T11:34:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Keep in mind the Canadian loophole issue was happening in the 60s and 70s first of all, second of all to get most jobs all you need to show is photo ID and social security card, and you still have your birth certificate of course showing birth in the USA. > > The USA closed this loophole by simply reinstating the citizenship of anyone who did it, saying that by them residing in the USA they showed they did not intend to renounce to begin with. > > Notice that the state department says you can reside in the USA after renouncing as an alien only, which to me says if you have a second citizenship you can come in on a visa like anyone else. However if you only have USA citizenship you can’t enter the USA as an alien, an alien by definition has a nationality. So I’m guessing if you renounce with no other citizenship and then try to reside in the USA again they’ll simply reinstate your citizenship. > > In fact I think thats the answer to my original question, they’ll quietly reinstate it saying you did not understand what renunciation meant. I can understand why they want to be quiet about this not wanting the hassle of a bunch of americans renouncing for political reasons. Haha, too funny. If Gorgulski wanted, he could get a visa to travel back to America (using the UN Travel Document), and use his birth certificate to get new IDs and start collecting welfare. I’ve never seen or heard of a single agency in America that asked if you have a Certificate Loss of Nationality (CLN). Too funny. Back in the day when I was applying for security clearances, all they asked for was my **birth certificate**. I think this applies for anyone who was born in America and they renounce, even if they have a different nationality. All this does is really point at the idiocy surrending the NEED to renounce in the first place. The US should really re-think how they treat Americans abroad because their current system has these laughable holes in it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/46 "2012-01-08T17:03:46Z")
**ac35155** : You’ve just moved the goalposts regarding Americans abroad and their banks by adding “…in a country where you are a non-resident.” That is a rather different story from what you were talking about earlier, which included people born in the US but living in the country of their other citizenship. US taxes from abroad are a pain and I’d like to see the US fall into line with the rest of the world (don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath), but in general the system isn’t quite as evil as you make it out to be. Still evil, no question: why should foreign banks report anything to the IRS unless the money is originating from or flowing to the US? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/47 "2012-01-08T17:06:27Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Keep in mind the Canadian loophole issue was happening in the 60s and 70s first of all, second of all to get most jobs all you need to show is photo ID and social security card, and you still have your birth certificate of course showing birth in the USA. You still have to lie on the employment application, which invariably asks whether you are (1) a US citizen, or (2) a legal resident alien or otherwise entitled to work in the US. I suppose there’s no way they’d catch you, since the IRS doesn’t worry too much about payroll taxes credited to invalid SSNs. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/48 "2012-01-08T20:07:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You still have to lie on the employment application, which invariably asks whether you are (1) a US citizen, or (2) a legal resident alien or otherwise entitled to work in the US. I suppose there’s no way they’d catch you, since the IRS doesn’t worry too much about payroll taxes credited to invalid SSNs. **No, I’m talking about for purposes of collecting welfare. 😃** Think about it, if Gorgulski went back there, all he has to do is request a **replacement** social security card, since he burned his. How can anybody say he’s not American; he was born there. He has a birth certificate there. But I think this is overkill though: I was reading some stuff on websites today stating that it’s pretty easy to get citizenship back. You just say that you were pressured into doing it or you didn’t understand it.. baahh haah.. cry a little bit, and they give it back. I imagine, if someone like him - who even went on Russian TV to say he renounced - that the Dept. of State would give it back to him just to be able to gloat about it. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/49 "2012-01-08T20:31:36Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **ac35155** : You’ve just moved the goalposts regarding Americans abroad and their banks by adding “…in a country where you are a non-resident.” That is a rather different story from what you were talking about earlier, which included people born in the US but living in the country of their other citizenship. > > US taxes from abroad are a pain and I’d like to see the US fall into line with the rest of the world (don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath), but in general the system isn’t quite as evil as you make it out to be. Still evil, no question: why should foreign banks report anything to the IRS unless the money is originating from or flowing to the US? Dr. Drake, this is what I’ve been saying all the time. Having accounts in 3rd party countries are just safer, especially when you can get nice deposit insurance like they have in Switzerland. I’m not even talking about taxes. What is the average world interest rate today-- 1% per YEAR?? You get nothing. Sure, if a government wants to get their $1 share of taxes from the interest on my $100,000 deposit, I’ll give them their $1 share. For me, it’s about diversification, and I’m told NO. Anyone from any other country could do it, but I can’t because I was born in America.. common!! I guess this is more about the principle of freedom than anything else to me. By the way, you never escape taxes anywhere you are. Most countries tax **residents** on worldwide income wherever it may be. The US stuff just creates more headaches. For example, let’s suppose someone lives in Argentina and gets rental income from a house in America. Technically, since he lives in Argentina, he is supposed to declare that income to Argentina, but the US says it’s passive income and wants to tax it. It’s a big nightmare, really. Sure, I’ll pay the one-time $450 fee to save $1,000 **per year** in compliance costs. ---
**Author:** ![ac35155](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@ac35155](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ac35155)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/50 "2012-01-08T21:53:11Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **ac35155** : You’ve just moved the goalposts regarding Americans abroad and their banks by adding “…in a country where you are a non-resident.” That is a rather different story from what you were talking about earlier, which included people born in the US but living in the country of their other citizenship. > > US taxes from abroad are a pain and I’d like to see the US fall into line with the rest of the world (don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath), but in general the system isn’t quite as evil as you make it out to be. Still evil, no question: why should foreign banks report anything to the IRS unless the money is originating from or flowing to the US? Dr Drake, let me tell you how this affects me. I guess many people won’t give a sh\*t because it doesn’t affect them: I don’t live in Argentina though. Let’s suppose an American living in Argentina is making money. Putting money in an Argentinan bank is financial suicide. Every time I look at the exchange rate, it’s getting worse. So this American want to put the money in another bank in Euros because the Dollar has also lost a lot of value. …And he is he can’t because of his currency nationality. Shouldn’t it be the choice of the person who made the money where they want to to put it? That’s it really. I just don’t care for a government far away restricting my choices. I’m not gonna contribute 1 penny to the American government because they don’t provide me with 1 penny worth of services. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/51 "2012-01-08T22:34:38Z")
Well, as I said, refusing accounts to people born in the USA is one thing, but refusing accounts to Americans who are also non-resident aliens is a different kettle of fish. One is unreasonable, the other is reasonable. The main reason I’m retaining my citizenship is money: I think it will be easier to inherit property in the US, and then to sell it, as an American. Maybe I’m wrong, but with any luck it won’t come up for many years. After that, there’s no reason to retain citizenship other than the convenience of travelling to and from the US. You’re not entirely correct about services. The US does provide some services to Americans abroad: consular services. That’s a technicality, though, since I believe they only cover travel and emergencies. As far as I know, you don’t have any representation in Congress, which to my mind is a bigger issue: taxation without representation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/52 "2012-01-08T23:39:52Z")
Your citizenship status won’t affect your property rights in the US. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/53 "2012-01-09T00:09:21Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, as I said, refusing accounts to people born in the USA is one thing, but refusing accounts to Americans who are also non-resident aliens is a different kettle of fish. One is unreasonable, the other is reasonable. > > The main reason I’m retaining my citizenship is money: I think it will be easier to inherit property in the US, and then to sell it, as an American. Maybe I’m wrong, but with any luck it won’t come up for many years. After that, there’s no reason to retain citizenship other than the convenience of travelling to and from the US. > > You’re not entirely correct about services. The US does provide some services to Americans abroad: consular services. That’s a technicality, though, since I believe they only cover travel and emergencies. > > As far as I know, you don’t have any representation in Congress, which to my mind is a bigger issue: taxation without representation. And also, I’d say that being able to enter the US for any reason is a good thing. Imagine wanting to fly from, say, Panama City to Auckland, NZ and hoping that US Customs and Immigration will let you change planes in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/54 "2012-01-09T02:44:37Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > You’re not entirely correct about services. The US does provide some services to Americans abroad: consular services. That’s a technicality, though, since I believe they only cover travel and emergencies. > > As far as I know, you don’t have any representation in Congress, which to my mind is a bigger issue: taxation without representation. The [American Services](http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service.html) section at the US Embassy in Bangkok is very helpful to Americans. I’ve used them on occasion and always had a good experience. It doesn’t have to be an emergency. If they cannot assist you outright, then they can direct you to the website of whatever government agency can. I have representation in Congress, because I still claim a particular place for voting purposes. The registrar in the county tells me as long as I can give the address of the last place I lived there, then I can still vote even if I don’t have a curent address, as long as I’m not also voting somewhere else in the US. I’m not saying anyone in this thread is, but personally I’m not one of these anti-American cranks I meet all the time in Bangkok who have left the country out of disgust. I like America just fine. I left America a) because I’ll live where I damned well please and I happen to like it here, and b) my wife’s career – and believe me, she has a very serious and lengthy government career – and family are here. She has no interest in becoming an American, because I’d be her only family there, and if I died, then what? All her ties are in Bangkok. She’d probably end up just returning. Sure she could secretly keep her Thai citizenship (Thailand prohibits dual citizenships), but why go to all that trouble when she’d just come back here anyway, and we’ll probably not even live in the US again too? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/55 "2012-01-09T04:35:54Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > And also, I’d say that being able to enter the US for any reason is a good thing. Imagine wanting to fly from, say, Panama City to Auckland, NZ and hoping that US Customs and Immigration will let you change planes in Hawaii. You don’t have to pass immigration to take an onward flight. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/56 "2012-01-09T04:56:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You don’t have to pass immigration to take an onward flight. [You do now in the US.](http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_4383.html) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/57 "2012-01-09T04:59:05Z")
Wow. [You’re right](http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States#b). What the fuck is that all about? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/58 "2012-01-09T06:47:09Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I have representation in Congress, because I still claim a particular place for voting purposes. The registrar in the county tells me as long as I can give the address of the last place I lived there, then I can still vote even if I don’t have a curent address, as long as I’m not also voting somewhere else in the US. Yep, expatriate US citizens are entitled to vote in federal elections (presidential and Congressional) at their last US address. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/59 "2012-01-09T06:52:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wow. [You’re right](http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States#b). What the fuck is that all about? This isn’t unique to the US. Lots of countries (including Britain) require transit visas for citizens of particular nationalities. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315/60 "2012-01-09T09:27:25Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Yep, expatriate US citizens are entitled to vote in federal elections (presidential and Congressional) at their last US address. What about US citizens with no last US address? Two of my friends are US citizens by virtue of having US citizen parents, but have never lived in the US. Yet I remember them talking about casting a vote for Obama. How is it decided which state their vote counts in? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/renouncing-your-only-citizenship/608315.md?page=4)