That would get him back in, but it wouldn’t do him much good when it came to applying for a job.
I can’t wait to go back to the consulate for the 2nd interview to renounce. Yes, they make it difficult and it is expensive $450. (It used to be free until 2010, but so many people started renouncing, they created the fee). When you figure in the cost of the trips, it’s going to cost me over $2,000 to renounce, but it’s worth it. The US just scares me now.
I left the US 6 years ago because I didn’t like the direction the coountry was going. Since then, Obummer keeps passing laws to make American expats’ lives very difficult, especially when no bank will open accounts for us. A few banks will open accounts for us if we give them our SSN from America so they can report it to the IRS. (WTF… we live in foreign countries!!) So America is just like Hotel California “you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.” The only way to live an unemcumbered life abroad (if you were born in America) is to renounce.
The straw that broke the camels back was when I personally got denied for a bank account because I was born in the USA.
Yes, you can become stateless. The consular employee read the threatening scripts and the ones how they discourage stateless. But I’m married, have a kid, and where I live signed every UN document on statelessness so to me it makes zero difference.
Other thing: The majority of people who renounce are not rich like the media says. Most people I know who have renounced or are in the process of renouncing are just middle class.
I gotta say though… I wouldn’t recommend going stateless without at least permanent residency in another country. That could make life VERY VERY difficult.
What country was that in? I was born in the US but have opened accounts in the UK & in Canada with no difficulty.
It happened to me as well in multiple countries. I have my residency in the Czech Republic and left the US 10 years ago. The Czechs are going to make it hard to renew this year so we are moving again… either back to Dubai or possibly to Chile.
I am working on getting a second passport and while I don’t think I would give up my US citizenship, it’d be nice if that were an option.
Huh. Never woulda thought. Where I am, you tend to accumulate bank accounts like pocket change. I can’t begin to guess how many I’ve simply abandoned over the years because it was too much trouble to go in and close it. From time to time I’ll find one of my old ATM cards, and just to see if there’s been any interest added to the few cents I left behind I’ll check, but usually the ATM just tells me to go see a bank official.
I was told “We don’t open accounts for Americans” at banks in New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Germany, Dubai and Czech Republic.
That’s very interesting. Australia and NZ are especially surprising. Did they say why? I mean was it Americans specifically or just any foreigner? In Thailand, you do have to have documentation showing you are tied here somehow and not just a tourist, but that’s for all foreigners, not just Americans. Although I understand there is a bank or to that will flout even that regulation.
I tried Germany, Switzerland, Portugal, Guatemala. I got screen prints and emails to prove the rejections. Why the US wants to make my life more difficult, I have no idea. I figure it’s just spite.
If you’re an American overseas, I recommend checking out: http://isaacbrocksociety.com/
The guy who started the site, petros and a few people who other people who are involved, regularly send emails to mainstream media sources to try to get the word out.
Desert Nomad, the problem is that every passport shows where you were born. Expect the bank to ask you for your Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN). Otherwise, they will likely just continue to treat you like an American Leper.
Maybe it’s just an accumulation of all of the things that I know, but I don’t know **WHY **on earth an American living abroad would want to keep citizenship. There’s really no benefit nowadays since there are visa waiver countries and even in Latin America, it’s very easy to get a multiple entry tourist visa to be able to go back and get groped by the TSA anytime you like.
But US citizenship isn’t all that bad for people who are born OUTSIDE of America. All they have to do is use the “other” passport and no problem. The Americans who were born there are the group that get screwed the most.
It’s WAS already like that in most of the world. BUT this FACTA opened up a whole other set of complications. An No, there is BLATANT “we don’t take Americans”. For example, my non-American wife can open an account anywhere she likes, but I can’t. That’s just f*cked up!
As an American who’s lived abroad for almost twelve years, I have to say I find your posts totally baffling. I have opened bank accounts in my adopted country, at three different banks, without ever experiencing what you describe. I get no hassle from anyone over my dual citizenship. In fact I find it very convenient to be able to stand in the short line at Immigration on both legs of my journey.
I think that it would be *more * hassle to travel to the US on a non-US passport that said “Place of Birth: USA” and to have to explain to Immigration that no, I am not a US citizen, and to have to explain why. I can’t imagine that wouldn’t set off at least some alarm bells.
Plus, expatriation isn’t always forever. I might well want to move back some day. Why give up my guaranteed right to?
Well, this is fascinating.
This might be an impossible scenario and therefore have a bone-simple answer, but I’m curious:
say you are wanted for a crime in the U.S. but through whatever circumstances you get into another country and attempt renoucing.
Do they run a check of any possible warrants or dangling legal proceedings on each individual before granting disavowment?
Hypothetically, if you manage to 1. escape US before said warrants are issued and 2. are granted discitizenship and 3. become stateless, can laws be inforced on you…? Can you be extridicted if you are stateless…?
I guess I lack a fundamental understanding of what happens to a non-citizen who commits a crime on foreign soil, which means i’m opperating from a fairly ignorant start here.
I can see how you’d be governed by either the law of the nation you are in OR governed by the laws of the nation of which you’re a citizen, but what if you’re stateless…?
Hey Ruad, thanks for your post. You’re right, renunciation probably isn’t for everyone. You can always have your citizenship reinstated, but we don’t hear too much about that because frankly, I don’t think many people want it back. A while back, I took all the renunciations for the year, according the federal registry, and added them up and tried to clean it for duplicate entries. If I remember correctly, at the end of 3rd quarter 2011, there were 2,000+ renunciants.
Take my circumstances: I live in South America. I opened accounts here no problem pre-FACTA. (Now I hear you have to give your SSN.). But deposit insurance here is somewhat low AND the dollar hasn’t exactly been a great investment. I wanted to open mult-currency accounts in other countries, and I was told no repeatedly, due to place of birth/passport. I FINALLY got one little crap investment account set up, but they made me sign a waiver to the IRS, even though all the money that goes into that account is generated in another country.
Actually, it’s a little bit of both, as far as the US is concerned. The US exercises its laws EXTRATERRITORILY, so (for now) if I broke a US law, like bribing a politician in a foreign country, I could end of in a US jail. I don’t know any politicians, but by the fact alone that I never truly escape the “plantation” irks me. But for the most part, when you live in a foreign country, you have to abide by their laws. I don’t know if you saw it, but there an American terrorist-woman locked up in Peru.
Your scenario is possible, but next-to-impossible, really. Citizenship in most countries take years to get, and usually most countries have some sort of residency requirement. In my case, I’m going to enter in with citizenship here, and then renounce US Citizenship. I’ll be stateless until citizenship is actually granted. Am I worried? No. I have permanent residency where I live and my life is here, not in America. People who go stateless without any government documentation where live are just asking for lotsa difficulties.
During the renunciation interviews they read scripts to you that say, amongst many other things, “If you comitted a crime, you will still be prosectuted” and “This doesn’t let you out of taxes due.” Plus, nowadays, there’s really nowhere to hide. Just don’t commit crimes and you have nothing to worry about.
The renunciation scripts are very threatening in nature, and very clearly, they DO NOT WANT you to renounce (hence the $450 fee, multiple visits, threats, etc..). They do not want to lose control over you. But nowadays, I see the US as some scary beast, and I have no interest in going back there.
ac,
can i ask where you are living…and how much better you like it than america?
again: FASCINATING. you’re living out a fantasy of mine…
I was able to open accounts in Dubai, Czech Republic and Switzerland at various times, but not always with the first bank I tired.
My reason for leaving the US was to buy health insurance which was impossible at home. I am now covered everywhere in the world except the USA. In the 10 years I have been gone, I have invested over half a million dollars in the Czech Republic and UAE as well as hired an employee.
I figure it is America’s loss.
Took a look at the website. I don’t think I’ll say what I think of it.
I’ve lived abroad longer than you and have also never ever experienced anything that could even remotely be considered a hardship due solely to the fact of being an American. Just opened yet another bank account in my name last month, to serve as a fund for a specific purpose; took maybe half an hour to do, if that. Desert Nomad seems rather rational, and I can believe his tales of being refused a bank account at various times, but I wonder if there’s more to it than the case of just being an American.
Keep in mind the Canadian loophole issue was happening in the 60s and 70s first of all, second of all to get most jobs all you need to show is photo ID and social security card, and you still have your birth certificate of course showing birth in the USA.
The USA closed this loophole by simply reinstating the citizenship of anyone who did it, saying that by them residing in the USA they showed they did not intend to renounce to begin with.
Notice that the state department says you can reside in the USA after renouncing as an alien only, which to me says if you have a second citizenship you can come in on a visa like anyone else. However if you only have USA citizenship you can’t enter the USA as an alien, an alien by definition has a nationality. So I’m guessing if you renounce with no other citizenship and then try to reside in the USA again they’ll simply reinstate your citizenship.
In fact I think thats the answer to my original question, they’ll quietly reinstate it saying you did not understand what renunciation meant. I can understand why they want to be quiet about this not wanting the hassle of a bunch of americans renouncing for political reasons.
Siam, I don’t think you really understand the implications of the FACTA. I say what has happened to me, and you don’t believe it. That website (issac brock) has MANY MANY MANY links on there to confirm what I’m saying. If you still refuse to believe me, type this into Google “Banks close accounts for americans overseas”. Here’s a link from the American Citizens Abroad:
http://www.aca.ch/overseas.htm
(Remember, ignore the “rich people” references, that is American propoganda and rhetoric.)
But Siam, I can say, aside from having my financial decisions restricted, and treated like a leper by banks, I have endured no other hardship as being an American overseas.