Renumbering of houses when one city is annexed by another. How does this work? (Venice & L.A.)

[Lord_Feldon]

@guizot

Let me repeat: I’m not talking about the zip code, or how the mail arrives at an address. I’m talking about only the address itself. The post office can’t create a zip code until they know what the actual address it.

The proper city name in a mailing address in the USA is determined by the zip code of the destination, and nothing else. “123 Fake Street, Anytown” and “123 Fake Street, Whichville” are 100% identical as mailing addresses if Anytown and Whichville are both aliases for the Zip code 12345.

If a zip code contains two identical addresses, the post office will have to resolve them somehow, either by pressing the municipality to make a change, or assigning them to be “123 Fake Street West” and “123 Fake Street East” or something like that.

[guizot]

@Lord_Feldon

The proper city name in a mailing address in the USA is determined by the zip code of the destination, and nothing else.

That’s the “proper city name” as far as the post office is concerned. I’m not even talking about that.

Look–if you get in a taxi at LAX and say, “Take me to 900 S. Central Avenue,” he or she will not be able to take you anywhere, until you say which city (because it could be Los Angeles or Glendale). AT THAT POINT ONLY THE CITY IS WHAT DISTINGUISHES THE TWO identifiers of the physical location. (And you don’t have a zip code because you don’t know which city.)

This is because there is a S. Central Ave. in L.A. and there also is one in Glendale, and they have the same address numbers. Forget about the freaking zip code and the Post Office. I’m not talking about that. I was just saying that, in theory, (though it’s not likely), those two addresses could fall into the same initial 5-digit zip code area. Of course they’re not going to have the same 11-digit complete zip code. Obviously. That’s not the point.

But in any case, you can’t generate a zip code for the address until you know which of those two physical addresses the person is referring to, and traditionally, the city name will provide that final, unique identifier (so you know which one is being referred to), because–while two adjacent cities might have an identical address (NOT ZIP CODE), the tradition is never to have two identical addresses (NOT ZIP CODES) in the same city.

[Lord_Feldon]

Yes, I suppose it is possible, in theory, that two locations within a 5-digit zip code might have the same municipal street address, even if they necessarily must have different mailing addresses (or one does not have mail delivery).

[guizot]

@Lord_Feldon

But in practice, lots of people use the USPS city, not the municipal city, to describe locations. My mom remembers living in Torrance, not Los Angeles, even though it was in the LA city limits, because her neighborhood had a Torrance mailing address.

Yes, that is definitely true, especially with newcomers. When I worked with refugees, they were often convinced that they lived in such-and-such city, because that city was their USPS mailing address. I had to make an effort to convince them otherwise, and that they would not get service from the police, etc. of those cities.

[Nava]

@jjakucyk

Because you can end up with duplicate addresses on the same street, but in different neighborhoods. Neighborhoods are usually irrelevant as far as addresses (and the post office) are concerned. “Oh, you want 2881 Oak Street on the OTHER side of town, just go down Oak Street for 15 miles and you’ll get there, but it’s still in the same city.” Some streets usually need to be renamed too if they’re the same name, but not actually the same street. “Oh sorry, this is Lincoln Avenue on the north side of town, that pizza is supposed to go to the Lincoln Avenue on the south side of town.” When they’re in different municipalities it’s no big deal.

That doesn’t require renumbering, just changing those street names which happen to match.

[Lord_Feldon]

@guizot

Yes, that is definitely true, especially with newcomers. When I worked with refugees, they were often convinced that they lived in such-and-such city, because that city was their USPS mailing address. I had to make an effort to convince them otherwise, and that they would not get service from the police, etc. of those cities.

Yeah, my city’s Facebook page gets regular annoyed comments from people outside of the limits, asking why THEIR street did not receive the free annual leaf collection, or get sprayed for mosquitoes, or hasn’t been repaved in decades, etc. Then half of them argue when the city tries to help them get in contact with their actual local government, because they know where they live and they’ve certainly never even HEARD of such-and-such township, so they definitely don’t live in it.

It doesn’t help that the school district boundaries also rarely align with the city boundaries around here.

[enipla]

Not directly addressing (heh) the OP, but I think relevant -

I’ve been with our county’s GIS department for 27 years (built the thing). We are the addressing authority. We also approve all new street AND subdivision names.

The incorporated towns in the county assign their own addresses, but are supposed to work with the county to avoid duplicates and confusion. We have a MOU (Memo of Understanding). We also have documented and recorded guidelines to be used. Still, we get some real head scratchers when they don’t run it by us first. Things like odd and even on the same side of the street (mixed parity). Naming a street a CIR (circle) when it’s a CT (dead end). Stuff like that.

We allow developers to choose their street names for a new subdivision. BUT we have to approve them before the development is approved (avoiding duplicates is the primary concern, also avoiding weird stuff that is hard to remember or spell. For instance, naming a street RPLW because it’s the first initials of your kids names). We have run into problems in the past where a developer will have put together all of their promotional ideas and printed their shiny advertising only to be told that they can’t have a street name or subdivision name. This REALLY pisses them off.

The towns use the standard block addressing system (cause they have blocks). The county uses the mile post system (because we don’t have blocks). In a nutshell, the milepost system is based on distance down the road. Address 500 is half a mile down the road on right as numbers increase. Address 1000 is one mile down the road. This at least makes some sense if you are aware of the system. Our primary duty is to emergency response, and of course they know the system. YMMV especially if you use a grid system.

Weird things I’ve encountered -

A town that allowed the left side of a street one name, while the right side of the street has another name. This is for an entire subdivision. If you want confusing directions, that’ll do it. I’ve had to come up with a very interesting model to get emergency routing to work for that mess.

Another time, a long time ago, the county allowed a developer to assign addresses. Lots of condos and multi story. The way they did it was give street numbers to all individual units (buildings should have a street number, then you tack on unit numbers). First floor is 10, 11, 12 Random ST. Second floor is 200, 201, 202. Third floor uses the thousands. Fourth floor ten thousands. Totally fucks up the street address range for the road.

Another time, a developer was all into numerology. And wanted the first house number on the street to be 12 instead of 10. That I approved, since it didn’t mess up the street range (if you are dealing with larger lots than can be subdivided, you never start with 1 or 2. You leave room to squeeze in additional addresses). We accommodate when we can.

[jjakucyk]

I find it interesting how in some cities like LA, Chicago, and NYC people will address mail to the specific city neighborhood (in NYC it’s not even just Queens but Flushing, Jamaica, Far Rockaway, etc.) rather than the city as a whole. Cincinnati however is the exact opposite. Pretty much any address in the city or the surrounding independent suburbs and townships are still just addressed as Cincinnati. I assume that’s because there’s a (roughly) county-wide numbering system, so if there are streets with the same name, then they won’t have overlapping numbers. There’s even one specific anomaly in the city where two completely different streets have the same name, Pinehurst Lane. One is private and one is public, but they’re both in the same city neighborhood, Hyde Park, and they’re both in the same zip code, 45208. The private lane however has only three houses, so the addresses are just single digits, whereas the public street is the 3500 block. Google Maps shows it as Pinehurst Avenue, but that’s not what the actual signs say.

[guizot]

@jjakucyk

I find it interesting how in some cities like LA, Chicago, and NYC people will address mail to the specific city neighborhood (in NYC it’s not even just Queens but Flushing, Jamaica, Far Rockaway, etc.) . . .

As a taxi driver in L.A. I learned that this usually aligns with the socio-economic status of the neighborhood. People from the more well-to-do districts do not identify neighborhoods as though they are separate cities, while passengers from lower income areas do exactly that. One time I picked up two guys in Hollywood, and all they said was, “Take us back to L.A.”, as though that would be perfectly clear. What they meant was downtown L.A. They perceived Hollywood as a distinct city, and “L.A.” as only downtown. Presumably, this is because economic mobility amplifies geographic mobility, and an accompanying perspective of urban space.

[thorny_locust]

@Musicat

The Post Office doesn’t care what you call the neighborhood; they use ZIP codes. Change the municipality all you want, but the ZIP code doesn’t change, so duplicate addresses are impossible.

The issue isn’t only the Post Office. As others have mentioned it’s the pizza place; and more importantly, it’s emergency services. If it looks like a duplicate address at first glance, it’s a problem, even if the post office can tell the difference.

In my area, there’s a batch of private roads running down to the lake. Post office has nothing to do with it – they’re private roads, and the post office doesn’t deliver on them; people get their mail at a PO box, or at their other addresses (a lot of these places are summer homes, and increasingly rentals), or at a bank of mailboxes set at the nearest point available that’s on a public road.

When I first moved here, a number of roads shared the same name – think of four roads all called Oak Grove, though that’s not what the name was. The fire and ambulance people were really unhappy about this. Eventually, they managed to get the road names changed and house numbers assigned so that emergency crews had some hope of finding the right place in time. Quite a lot of places got new “fire numbers” assigned to their houses. I don’t remember what authority had to be invoked to do this – I think the town was involved.

(My own house, which is on a town road, changed its address just as I was moving in - I found out about it just in time to not have to send out two batches of change-of-address info. The address had been RFD-single number, shared with every other place in that delivery zone, distinguishable by street name and on the same road only by the names of the people living in the house – I told the local post office I was buying the old Name place and they knew exactly where I meant. As I was moving in the post office was assigning individual street numbers.)

[GaryM]

I bought a 5A lot in a new subdivision about 7 miles out of town. Lots numbered 1-14. I went to the PO in town to inquire about an address. Was told to call the 911 Center as they assign address numbers. 14 lots on both sides of a 1 mile private road and we have 5 digit numbers. I assume it fits into a grid somewhere.

Farther down the county road they don’t have addresses, but each driveway is assigned a “Fire Number”.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@guizot

As a taxi driver in L.A. I learned that this usually aligns with the socio-economic status of the neighborhood. People from the more well-to-do districts do not identify neighborhoods as though they are separate cities, while passengers from lower income areas do exactly that. One time I picked up two guys in Hollywood, and all they said was, “Take us back to L.A.”, as though that would be perfectly clear. What they meant was downtown L.A. They perceived Hollywood as a distinct city, and “L.A.” as only downtown. Presumably, this is because economic mobility amplifies geographic mobility, and an accompanying perspective of urban space.

I’m not sure this is always true generally. Neighborhoods and formerly independent communities in L.A. are usually eager to assert a distinctive local identity. When the Palms Neighborhood Council successfully advocated to have their Metro station named Palms instead of for its cross streets, it was seen as a minor triumph for community spirit.

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[Melbourne]

Several of the main roads Melbourne were renumbered soon after I got here. So that instead of having major roads that went 1…367, 1…358, 1…405 they went 1…13xx. That was mostly for the benefit of the fire and ambulance.

For some reason, not all of the main roads. So I still get lost on Sydney Road (the road from Melbourne to Sydney) where the numbering restarts.

[RichardSam]

When cities are incorporated in California, they have to have their names approved by the State, as well as their charters (that includes which public officers get merged into the same person). That prevents redundant city names. The cities can number their streets any way their city councils choose. If it’s too confusing, elections change the City Council. If the Post Office objects to the numbering, they can petition the city. If the Post Office is unable to deliver the mail correctly, they don’t deliver the mail, the City gets the message very quickly in that case. If the Post Office can figure out where something goes, no matter what is on the envelope they deliver it. If not, they don’t, they might return it if you’re lucky. If Venice kept their small numbered addresses, there were probably no redundancies in Los Angeles at the time. And money talks.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@RichardSam

If Venice kept their small numbered addresses, there were probably no redundancies in Los Angeles at the time. And money talks.

Once you get to the three digit addresses east of Pacific, there’s a lot of potential for redundant addresses on Venice or Washington Boulevard, although the zip codes will certainly be different.

Venice in the 1920s wasn’t rich.

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[Mr_Downtown]

@jjakucyk

I find it interesting how in some cities like LA, Chicago, and NYC people will address mail to the specific city neighborhood

Not in Chicago. You’re either in Chicago or you’re in a suburb. In the late 1980s, I noticed that some of the magazines I got at work were addressed to 1313 E 60th, JACKSON PARK IL 60637. There’s no such town, it’s all part of Chicago, and presumably that was the work of some computer database equating ZIP Codes with their affiliated post offices. Good thing my local post office branch wasn’t STATION G.