# Rep. Katherine Harris Condemns Separation of Church, State **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317 "2006-08-26T13:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/1 "2006-08-26T13:26:29Z")
From [this article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/25/AR2006082501640.html) > [@](#): > > Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) said this week that God did not intend for the United States to be a “nation of secular laws” and that the separation of church and state is a “lie we have been told” to keep religious people out of politics. > > “If you’re not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin,” Harris told interviewers from the Florida Baptist Witness, the weekly journal of the Florida Baptist State Convention. She cited abortion and same-sex marriage as examples of that sin. I put this in the pit because I thought it might generate some harsh language. But franky, I’m grateful for her statement. She is showing forthright honesty in proclaiming her beliefs, thus making it much easier for the electorate to make choices. I’m sure that many other elected officials and other candidates for office believe the same thing, but never proclaim it to the populace for fear of offending certain sensitive voters who might think that the Constitution should be taken seriously. So thanks, Katie! I wish all politicians would give voice to their beliefs as openly! I may now comfortably consider that anyone supporting you is not a person I wish to associate with! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/2 "2006-08-26T13:31:47Z")
I agree. Know your enemy. The scary part is that an awful lot of people would vote for her \*because \* of that statement, and I’m sure that’s what she’s banking on. I doubt she could win, but these sorts of things have surprised me before. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/3 "2006-08-26T13:43:08Z")
“If you’re not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin,” Yeah, because we Christians are so renown for being sin-free! :rolleyes: I agree with every other quote from her in the article, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/4 "2006-08-26T13:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I agree with every other quote from her in the article, though. [/QUOTE] You agree that “we have to have the faithful in government” because that is God’s will? You agree that separating religion and politics is “so wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers.”? You agree that “And if we are the ones not actively involved in electing those godly men and women,” then “we’re going to have a nation of secular laws. That’s not what our Founding Fathers intended, and that certainly isn’t what God intended.”? Interesting viewpoint you have there. Please don’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/5 "2006-08-26T14:10:02Z")
xx > [@](#): > > Harris told interviewers from the Florida Baptist Witness Here’s the source [article at the Baptist Witness](http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/6298.article) > [@](#): > > we have to have elected officials in government and we have to have the faithful in government and over time, that lie we have been told, the separation of church and state, people have internalized, thinking that they needed to avoid politics and that is so wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers. And if we are the ones not actively involved in electing those godly men and women and if people aren’t involved in helping godly men in getting elected than we’re going to have a nation of secular laws. That’s not what our founding fathers intended and that’s certainly isn’t what God intended. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/6 "2006-08-26T14:19:54Z")
> [@Katherine Harris](#): > > If you’re not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin huh.I’d be astonished if most legislative bodies in the US weren’t predominantly white males identified as Christians. even those that allowed for abortions. I’m pretty sure the SCOTUS that decided Roe v Wade were. perhaps she should clarify ‘right Christians’ ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/7 "2006-08-26T14:20:33Z")
That gal is batshit crazy. In a fun way. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/8 "2006-08-26T14:35:58Z")
Well, per the link to the “Baptist Witness” it seems she’s an Orthodox Presbyterian strongly influenced by [Francis Schaeffer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer), so I suspect she subscribes to not just the “Christian Manifesto” but also the [TULIP](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) principles. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Unconditional Election Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) Which would help explain her political philosophy. And also explain my my Uncle Gerrit likes her so much (He’s a diehard Calvinist who’s pissed at God right now because Uncle Gerrit is one of the Saved, yet isn’t completely healthy at age 80, and feels that such infirmities should be visited on Catholic Democrats, not good Republican Calvinists such as himself). Many of the Calvinists believe it is up to them to create a nation run by God’s laws here on earth. See the Wiki links to Dominionism and Reconstructionism in the Schaefer article. Schaefer’s writings have been considered by some to be influential to the development of Dominionism. I just hadn’t realized Harris had those leanings. I’m hoping the “Unconditional Election” doesn’t come true for her, tho! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/9 "2006-08-26T14:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] You agree that “we have to have the faithful in government” because that is God’s will? You agree that separating religion and politics is “so wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers.”? You agree that “And if we are the ones not actively involved in electing those godly men and women,” then “we’re going to have a nation of secular laws. That’s not what our Founding Fathers intended, and that certainly isn’t what God intended.”? Interesting viewpoint you have there. Please don’t vote. [/QUOTE] I’d nuance the first two quotes a bit more, but essentially, yeah, I agree with all those, and I believe that those who think differently have an equal right & responsibility to compete with my side in the public & private arenas. And I vote all the time, so 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/10 "2006-08-26T15:00:52Z")
I suppose at least this explains why she’s so certain of her victory. Of course, should she not be elected, i’m sure she would rethink her entire perspective on God. Or, you know, not. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/11 "2006-08-26T15:37:54Z")
**FriarTed** , how would those nuanced statements read, to be completely acceptable in your mind? Apologies if this seems to extend a hijack, but I think it’s relevant to the topic in that you evidently represent the kind of person to whom Harris is trying to appeal. Her statements seem to me not just false but outrageously so, and blatantly contrary to the common understanding of our political system. I believe she is pandering, and I can understand why she says it. What I can’t comprehend is the mindset of those who actually agree with her. Can you help me out, then? Whence comes your idea that religion should actually be united with politics, and the Founding Fathers didn’t intend us to have “secular laws” (but presumably, some kind of Christian theocracy)? ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/12 "2006-08-26T15:49:41Z")
It will never end. There will always be a group of people in this country attempting to ruin it by turning it into a theocracy. I’m resigned to that. But those of us, religious and non-religious alike, who think the founding principles are great ideas also vote. In droves. Good for us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/13 "2006-08-26T15:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] From [this article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/25/AR2006082501640.html) I put this in the pit because I thought it might generate some harsh language. But franky, I’m grateful for her statement. She is showing forthright honesty in proclaiming her beliefs, thus making it much easier for the electorate to make choices. I’m sure that many other elected officials and other candidates for office believe the same thing, but never proclaim it to the populace for fear of offending certain sensitive voters who might think that the Constitution should be taken seriously. So thanks, Katie! I wish all politicians would give voice to their beliefs as openly! I may now comfortably consider that anyone supporting you is not a person I wish to associate with! [/QUOTE] How do you know this is what she “really believes,” and not just what she and her people have determined should be the kind of thing she should say in order to get elected? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/14 "2006-08-26T15:53:16Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I’d nuance the first two quotes a bit more, but essentially, yeah, I agree with all those, and I believe that those who think differently have an equal right & responsibility to compete with my side in the public & private arenas. And I vote all the time, so 😛 [/QUOTE] If it’s God’s will how an it be that it is thwarted so easily? Kind of a lame-ass God, dontcha think? Say hello to your [brothers in arms.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/08/24/somalia.flogging.ap/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/15 "2006-08-26T15:54:21Z")
Cue music, please. The People’s Key of C, if you would. Very good… \*H…A…Double R, I…D-A-N spells “Harridan”… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/16 "2006-08-26T16:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] How do you know this is what she “really believes,” and not just what she and her people have determined should be the kind of thing she should say in order to get elected? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Despite working in a field where people lie to me frequently, I still tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless there is evidence to the contrary. Harris reports that she was influenced by Schaeffer and believes in what he wrote and stood for, and her behavior seems to me to be consistent with someone who believes in the sorts of things that Schaeffer propounds. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/17 "2006-08-26T16:09:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Harris has always professed a deep Christian faith. But she has rarely expressed such a fervent evangelical perspective publicly. Perhaps not, but any port in a storm. And what better port than the everlovin’ arms of Jesus himself? I’m not at all surprised that she would do this. Seems to be par for the course, as a matter of fact. Slog away until it looks like you might get your ass handed to you, then pander to to religious right to pull them into the voting booths. I fully expect Jim Talent to pull the same shit here in MO come October. Dunno what’s more disappointing, that it’s a well visited far too often, or that there exist people who will cheerfully drink from it. -Waste ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/18 "2006-08-26T16:15:21Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I’d nuance the first two quotes a bit more, but essentially, yeah, I agree with all those, and I believe that those who think differently have an equal right & responsibility to compete with my side in the public & private arenas. [/quote] I’ll make an effort, then to “compete” with your side. 1. It is folly to think you, or Katherine Harris, knows God’s will. 2. Her use of the term “faithful” means, apparently, her kind of Christians. Her kind of Christians is not synonymous with “Good, Moral People.” Is that one of your nuances, that, rather than “faithful” she should have said “good, moral people”? 3. Personally, I don’t believe God chooses our leaders. Free will and all that. Does he also pick the winners of football games? 4. The Establishment Clause says that Congress should not establish a religion. How do you jibe that with the idea that separating church and state is wrong, or that the founding fathers didn’t intend to stop a religiously run government. 5. Where do you get the belief that you and Ms. Harris can determine what God intends? I think you need only look at current Islamic run governments to see the problems with not having a separation of church and state. > [@FriarTed](#): > > And I vote all the time, so 😛 But I said please! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/19 "2006-08-26T16:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I suspect she subscribes to not just the “Christian Manifesto” but also the [TULIP](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) principles. [/QUOTE] Does God ever get tired of following all these stupid rules people keep making up for him? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/20 "2006-08-26T16:30:59Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] I think you need only look at current Islamic run governments to see the problems with not having a separation of church and state. [/QUOTE] but the Islamic ones follow the \*wrong \* God, that’s the problem (or that’s how they would respond) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317.md?page=2)