# Rep. Katherine Harris Condemns Separation of Church, State **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317 "2006-08-26T13:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/21 "2006-08-26T16:39:10Z")
I really wish she’d get out of the way. She’s just going to clunk up the primary. I’m voting for [Will McBride](http://www.mcbrideforsenate.com/). I’d vote for [Belinda Noah](http://www.noah2006.com/), but she doesn’t have a hope in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/22 "2006-08-26T16:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] I think you need only look at current Islamic run governments to see the problems with not having a separation of church and state. [/QUOTE] These barbarians mostly live ultra-repressed lives anyway. They’d love to live under a theocratic dictatorship because it would mostly just mean that everybody else would have to be as boring and scared of god as them, like it or not! ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/23 "2006-08-26T17:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Her statements seem to me not just false but outrageously so, and blatantly contrary to the common understanding of our political system. I believe she is pandering, and I can understand why she says it. What I can’t comprehend is the mindset of those who actually agree with her. Can you help me out, then? Whence comes your idea that religion should actually be united with politics, and the Founding Fathers didn’t intend us to have “secular laws” (but presumably, some kind of Christian theocracy)? [/QUOTE] This is the part that amazes me. It’s one thing to believe that JESUS wants you to vote for Katherine Harris; it’s another thing to believe something about the founding of the country that’s in such striking contrast to reality. I’m puzzled more by the factual errors than the religious beliefs - did half the country sleep through civics class in high school? How can you convince yourself of something so obviously false like the idea that our country’s founders wanted it to be a “Christian nation” (what, did they just forget to mention it?)? Why is it that Fundamentalist Christianity always seems to be associated with these ridiculous lies? ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/24 "2006-08-26T17:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Cue music, please. The People’s Key of C, if you would. Very good… \*H…A…Double R, I…D-A-N spells “Harridan”… [/QUOTE] Plato was right, music should be censored. But the question remains: do we start with Disney’s “It’s a Small World” or the Bay City Rollers :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/25 "2006-08-26T17:56:38Z")
I think Katherine Harris needs to [sit down and shut up](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-12;&version=31;). > [@](#): > > Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) said this week that God did not intend for the United States to be a “nation of secular laws” [QUOTE=FriarTed] “If you’re not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin,” Yeah, because we Christians are so renown for being sin-free! :rolleyes: I agree with every other quote from her in the article, though. [/QUOTE] So, what do you think the penalty for [worshipping false gods](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuteronomy%2013&version=31) ought to be? Which day of the week should people [keep holy](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:8-11;&version=31;), Saturday, Sunday, or some other day? What should the [penalty](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2015:32-36;&version=31;) be for people who keep the wrong day of the week holy? And do you agree that Katherine Harris should be barred from public office (since holding public office certainly includes her having authority over men)? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/26 "2006-08-26T18:03:56Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] I’m puzzled more by the factual errors than the religious beliefs - did half the country sleep through civics class in high school? [/QUOTE] The people you’re talking don’t generally put much trust in what is taught in “government schools.” Note the evolution/creation issue. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/27 "2006-08-26T18:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Well, per the link to the “Baptist Witness” it seems she’s an Orthodox Presbyterian strongly influenced by [Francis Schaeffer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer), so I suspect she subscribes to not just the “Christian Manifesto” but also the [TULIP](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) principles. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Unconditional Election Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) Which would help explain her political philosophy. And also explain my my Uncle Gerrit likes her so much (He’s a diehard Calvinist who’s pissed at God right now because Uncle Gerrit is one of the Saved, yet isn’t completely healthy at age 80, and feels that such infirmities should be visited on Catholic Democrats, not good Republican Calvinists such as himself). Many of the Calvinists believe it is up to them to create a nation run by God’s laws here on earth. See the Wiki links to Dominionism and Reconstructionism in the Schaefer article. Schaefer’s writings have been considered by some to be influential to the development of Dominionism. I just hadn’t realized Harris had those leanings. I’m hoping the “Unconditional Election” doesn’t come true for her, tho! 😃 [/QUOTE] Umm… Now, where did I read about those TULIP principles before… NOW I remember! [http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html](http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html)😃 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/28 "2006-08-26T18:17:20Z")
I generally don’t believe in conspiracy theories, but the more I hear from Katherine Harris the more I have to question how much she screwed with the election in 2000. If you think Bush was picked by god then I doubt you would have qualms about doing much anything to ensure he was elected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/29 "2006-08-26T18:32:11Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] How do you know this is what she “really believes,” and not just what she and her people have determined should be the kind of thing she should say in order to get elected? -FrL- [/QUOTE] I don’t know what is worse: believing what she said, or saying it when she doesn’t believe it. This isn’t some minor issue, or even a larger one that reasonable people can disagree over. She’s not only saying that we should legislate against what (some) Christians consider sin, but that we should not have non-Christians in government. While it’s true that we don’t have a complete separation of Church and state in this country, that is only true in the sense that “Church” is taken to mean a general belief in a diety, not a particular demonination. She wants to tear down the wall between the state and particular denomination. Negatory there, Ms. Harris. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/30 "2006-08-26T18:58:43Z")
Nice how her office tries to cover her ass: > [@Frantic Campaign Worker](#): > > “Congresswoman Harris encourages Americans from all walks of life and faith to participate in our government,” it stated. “She continues to be an unwavering advocate of religious rights and freedoms.” In other words, pretty much the exact opposite of what she just said. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/31 "2006-08-26T19:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] Does God ever get tired of following all these stupid rules people keep making up for him? [/QUOTE] Well, oddly enough, yeah. Check out Jesus’s denunciations of the Pharisees and scribes. Or this: > [@](#): > > Then Jesus proceeded to tell the people this parable. “(A) man planted a vineyard, leased it to tenant farmers, and then went on a journey for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenant farmers to receive some of the produce of the vineyard. But they beat the servant and sent him away empty-handed. So he proceeded to send another servant, but him also they beat and insulted and sent away empty-handed. Then he proceeded to send a third, but this one too they wounded and threw out. The owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I shall send my beloved son; maybe they will respect him.’ But when the tenant farmers saw him they said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Let us kill him that the inheritance may become ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and put those tenant farmers to death and turn over the vineyard to others.” When the people heard this, they exclaimed, “Let it not be so!” But he looked at them and asked, “What then does this scripture passage mean: ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’? Everyone who falls on that stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.” The scribes and chief priests sought to lay their hands on him at that very hour, but they feared the people, for they knew that he had addressed this parable to them ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/32 "2006-08-26T19:43:17Z")
Clearly her expressed views contravene the Constitution, and you’d think anyone on the Supreme Court who can understand English would be forced to disqualify her from taking an oath to uphold said Constitution. I don’t see how anyone can think otherwise (feel otherwise, sure, but feelings aren’t relevant). Somewhat more controversially, her **actions** would appear to be evil – not evil in the psycho-magical sense of “possessed by Lucifer, a fallen angel”, but evil in the absolute sense of “willing to inflict harm on others, or permit harm to be so inflicted, in order to pursue personal goals”. But the question remains, are her **intentions** evil? At this distance, I cannot know her heart. No one can, really. Maybe only God knows. Without that special knowledge, I’m afraid I only have her words and actions by which to assess her – and I’ll have to conclude accordingly that she’s evil and anti-American. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/33 "2006-08-26T19:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sailboat] Clearly her expressed views contravene the Constitution, and you’d think anyone on the Supreme Court who can understand English would be forced to disqualify her from taking an oath to uphold said Constitution. I don’t see how anyone can think otherwise (feel otherwise, sure, but feelings aren’t relevant). [/QUOTE] There’s nothing unconstitutional about her holding those views. It would, however, be unconstitutional to disqualify her for her holding those views. Religious tests work both ways, in case you didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/34 "2006-08-26T20:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Why is it that Fundamentalist Christianity always seems to be associated with these ridiculous lies? [/QUOTE] Because fundamentalism in general is all about believing ridiculous, impossible things. Consider the fundies who are biblical literalists; they have to ignore the Bible’s many internal contradictions, and justify the many evil acts attributed to God and his followers, especially in the Old Testament. I’ve heard plenty of these people try to justify killing most of humanity in the Flood ( as well as arguing that it was real ), killing the firstborn, and similar evils and craziness. I find it quite easy to believe that people who’ll swallow that will swallow anything, much less something as minor as a little historical revisionism. These are, after all, people who are willing to believe in things are logically impossible, such as a document that contradicts itself like the Bible being absolute, word-for-word truth. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/35 "2006-08-26T20:17:55Z")
People did not settle this country for freedom of religion. They came where their religion would be the only religion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/36 "2006-08-26T20:22:35Z")
The Bible has evolved, and Fundies recognize the truths of Quantum Mechanics. The Bible is invariably inerrant, even though two different experiments (i.e., readings of text) reveal two entirely different results. Shroedinger’s Cant ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/37 "2006-08-26T20:34:07Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] How do you know this is what she “really believes,” and not just what she and her people have determined should be the kind of thing she should say in order to get elected? -FrL- [/QUOTE] What difference does it make? Either way, she’s not the kind of person I want in public office. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/38 "2006-08-26T20:43:55Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] Umm… Now, where did I read about those TULIP principles before… NOW I remember! [http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html](http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html)😃 [/QUOTE] Those are pretty standard for a lot of Protestant denominations; the TULIP rules are a summary of John Calvin’s teachings, and he’s obviously a pretty influential figure in Protestant Christianity. It’s no surprise if the WBC teaches it, but it’s not as though it’s a particularly extremist or out there doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/39 "2006-08-26T21:08:03Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] What difference does it make? Either way, she’s not the kind of person I want in public office. [/QUOTE] It only makes a difference because the OP was worded to refer to Harris’s actual beliefs. Of course, either way, she shouldn’t be voted into office IMO. It’s just that I’d like to know whether it’s really true that there are religious crazies in office, or just pretend religious crazies in office. _That_ makes a difference. Real religious crazies I can trust to actually act on crazy religious beliefs–a terrible prospect. Pretend crazies I can trust to packpedal when religious beilefs get in the way of their own political gain–an equally terrible, but still different, prospect. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317/40 "2006-08-26T21:41:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] While it’s true that we don’t have a complete separation of Church and state in this country, that is only true in the sense that “Church” is taken to mean a general belief in a diety, not a particular demonination. [/QUOTE] But even that [has no place in the Constitution.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-katherine-harris-condemns-separation-of-church-state/370317.md?page=3)