# Rep. Paul's Pirate Solution: Letters of Marque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198 "2009-04-15T18:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/21 "2009-04-16T02:09:06Z")
[Privateering was banned by the Paris Declaration (1856).](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Paris) The U.S. was not signatory but has repeatedly affirmed a policy of compliance. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/22 "2009-04-16T02:20:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their last attack of an American vessel was an attempt to kill the crew and destroy the ship. You can ride on the ship of good intentions and throw flowers at them. I’ll take the one with Blackwater on it. Ummm…how is relying on the US navy “riding the ship of good intentions and throwing flowers”? Does what you wrote have anything to do with the post you quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/23 "2009-04-16T02:41:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And when they kill off some third party or otherwise act like the thugs-for-hire that they are, will you just shrug your shoulders ? OK, how many innocent third party boats are you expecting in the middle of the ocean during an attack? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And that’s assuming they don’t engage in some piracy themselves, for that matter. How about when their behavior gets them blown out of the water by a non-American navy ? Why would another country attack an American vessel while it’s under attack? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The ocean isn’t American occupied territory; unlike in Iraq there are people who can and will hold them accountable. The ocean isn’t pirate occupied territory. We use armed guards to move a million dollars money between banks. Why wouldn’t we use armd guards on ships and cargo worth many times that? Why is it OK for people to shoot RPG’s at Americans doing their job? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/24 "2009-04-16T02:46:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Ummm…how is relying on the US navy “riding the ship of good intentions and throwing flowers”? > Does what you wrote have anything to do with the post you quoted? It was in response to a crack against the use of Blackwater. And there’s nothing wrong with the US helping the situation but it’s an asymmetric war, which cannot be won by the Navy alone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/25 "2009-04-16T02:51:20Z")
More evidence that Paul doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. Letters of marque had nothing to do with combating piracy; they were a form of legalized piracy. If Paul wants to post bounties on pirates, he should at least learn the proper terminology for what he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/26 "2009-04-16T03:14:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Privateering was banned by the Paris Declaration (1856).](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Paris) The U.S. was not signatory but has repeatedly affirmed a policy of compliance. But interestingly, the U.S. has also disaffirmed that policy. One time. In early 1942, an honest-to-goodness Letter of Marque was issued to the blimp _Resolute_, which was armed with a single rifle, and sent after German U-boats. Such a ridiculous gesture seems like a deliberate statement that congress believed the US was not obligated to follow the Paris Declaration. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/27 "2009-04-16T03:18:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, how many innocent third party boats are you expecting in the middle of the ocean during an attack? I’m talking about them misidentifying a third party’s ship as a “pirate” and attacking of course. Or doing so for kicks. > [@Magiver](#): > > Why would another country attack an American vessel while it’s under attack? Are you actually bothering to read ? I’m talking about some other Navy blowing up a ship full of Blackwater thugs because they decided to attack someone else under their protection. > [@Magiver](#): > > The ocean isn’t pirate occupied territory. We use armed guards to move a million dollars money between banks. Why wouldn’t we use armd guards on ships and cargo worth many times that? This isn’t about “armed guards”. This is about Blackwater; notorious for being out of control thugs. You might as well hire a street gang. Or hire the pirates, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/28 "2009-04-16T03:21:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > More evidence that Paul doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. Letters of marque had nothing to do with combating piracy; they were a form of legalized piracy. **[A letter of marque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque)** \*\*is an official warrant or commission from a government authorizing the designated agent to search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation. \*\* > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If Paul wants to post bounties on pirates, he should at least learn the proper terminology for what he’s saying. Paul is the one who introduced bounties on Bin Laden and other terrorists which is a policy that continues into this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/29 "2009-04-16T03:30:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m talking about them misidentifying a third party’s ship as a “pirate” and attacking of course. Or doing so for kicks. Are you actually bothering to read ? I’m talking about some other Navy blowing up a ship full of Blackwater thugs because they decided to attack someone else under their protection. You’re responding to my suggestion that they put blackwater on cargo ships. go back and read it. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This isn’t about “armed guards”. This is about Blackwater; notorious for being out of control thugs. You might as well hire a street gang. Or hire the pirates, for that matter. My statement involved a desire to ride on a boat with armed guards. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/30 "2009-04-16T03:45:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My statement involved a desire to ride on a boat with armed guards. You said you wanted a ship with Blackwater; that’s as bad or worse as wanting to join the pirates yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/31 "2009-04-16T03:57:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You said you wanted a ship with Blackwater; Absolutely I would want them on my ship. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > that’s as bad or worse as wanting to join the pirates yourself. Blackwater gets paid for defending it’s clients. They are the number one security company in the United States for the State Department. Comparing them to pirates doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/32 "2009-04-16T04:02:39Z")
I say this strictly as a journalist who’s job it was for two decades and a half to sell newspapers, and who struggled for those two-and-a-half decades to decide daily story placement on the front page: I think it’s a great idea! Wow, it might actually bring newspapering back from the grave! Go, Ron Paul! ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/33 "2009-04-16T04:34:05Z")
I’m not sure Letters of Marque are a good idea, especially as they historically tended to turn into “Get Out Of Jail Free” cards pretty quickly, especially in the 16th-18th Century when everyone was pretty much at war with everyone else and Spain. Also, there’s a big difference between a Letter of Marque _Dayted This 17th Daye of Aprile Inne The Yeare Of Our Lord 1589 Herebie Authorising ye Bearer to Undertake Whatsoever Actions they feel art Necessarie to bring Discomfit, Pecuniary Losse, Damage, and Interference to Our Enemies, to wit The Spanish, The French, and All Other Papist and Moorish Nationes, Signed Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth I, Defender Of The Faith etc etc_, and a modern Letter of Marque basically allowing the bearer (presumably a Private Military Company outside direct Government oversight) to buccaneer around the Horn of Africa like a real-life Dirk Pitt, arbitrarily engaging pretty much anyone they feel like, shelling and machine-gunning any “suspicious” looking boats and generally making a nuisance of themselves to the locals who _aren’t_ engaged in piracy and just want to go about their daily lives in peace. The sad fact of the matter is that, back in The Good Old Days, the Royal Navy kept on top of this sort of thing, and now… well, without an Empire the UK doesn’t have much need for The World’s Largest Navy and the US is a bit stretched at the moment. I think the answer- or at least one answer, anyway- is to draft an international treaty allowing all merchant vessels to carry small arms (shotguns, handguns, maybe a couple of rifles) for self-defence purposes. The guns would have to stay on the ship (perhaps locked in the Captain’s Cabin or with the Purser) when the ship is in port, but this would at least allow ships some chance of defending themselves against boarding parties at night or whatever. Q-ships might be another answer, provided they are crewed by properly trained Merchant Navy crews with military training, but ultimately this issue doesn’t have an easy solution. The image of Biggles & Algy lying on top of the bridge with a Lewis gun firing away at “blasted darkie pirates” is an appealing one to armchair admirals and people from An Earlier Time, but it just Doesn’t Work Like That Anymore and whatever solution is arrived at needs to have some serious weight behind it, not just a unilateral action by the US or the UK or whoever. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/34 "2009-04-16T04:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > A letter of marque is an official warrant or commission from a government authorizing the designated agent to search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation. You must have gone to the abridged Wikipedia site. Because on the regular Wikipedia site there wasn’t a period where you stopped. The article on that Wikipedia said “A letter of marque is an official warrant or commission from a government authorizing the designated agent to search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation, and has usually been used to authorize private parties to raid and capture merchant shipping of an enemy nation.” And what do we call private parties that raid and capture merchant shipping? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/35 "2009-04-16T08:05:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Blackwater gets paid for defending it’s clients. They are the number one security company in the United States for the State Department. Comparing them to pirates doesn’t make sense. Blackwater are thugs on land; pirates are thugs on water. Put Blackwater on the ocean and they’ll probably turn to piracy themselves at some point. Blackwater isn’t the “top security company” anywhere. They are notoriously brutal and out of control, and caused major problems in Iraq. They are well connected due to being founded and controlled by far right fundie Christians, not because they are actually very good. And because of the mania of the Republicans for privatizing everything; they wanted to replace the National Guard with Blackwater at one point. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/36 "2009-04-16T12:06:48Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Such a ridiculous gesture seems like a deliberate statement that congress believed the US was not obligated to follow the Paris Declaration. We’re not signatories to the Paris Declaration, but we are to the 1907 Hague Convention, and the provision regarding converting merchant ships into war ships applies. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/37 "2009-04-16T13:37:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And what do we call private parties that raid and capture merchant shipping? \ That made my morning. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/38 "2009-04-16T14:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > And because of the mania of the Republicans for privatizing everything; they wanted to replace the National Guard with Blackwater at one point. It’s just nor a real Imperial Presidency unless you’ve got Pretorians. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198/39 "2009-04-16T21:11:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You must have gone to the abridged Wikipedia site. Because on the regular Wikipedia site there wasn’t a period where you stopped. The article on that Wikipedia said “A letter of marque is an official warrant or commission from a government authorizing the designated agent to search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation, and has usually been used to authorize private parties to raid and capture merchant shipping of an enemy nation.” The law is directed at foreign parties committing offences against citizens of the issuing agent. Obviosly Paul would introduce legislation based on this since it’s already on the books. It even states in the article that he says it would have to be modified. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rep-pauls-pirate-solution-letters-of-marque/493198.md?page=1)