# Reparations are never going to happen so why do some democrats come out in favor of them... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186 "2019-02-25T17:22:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/261 "2019-03-10T17:31:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Absolutely _not_. The removal of an advantage is _not_ the imposition of a _dis_advantage. What advantage do poor Asian immigrants have over middle class Caribbean immigrants and middle class Hispanics? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/262 "2019-03-10T17:33:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They sued the \*banks, \*not the government. :rolleyes: Okay… this is irrelevant to anything I’ve been saying (once again), which is about the US government’s responsibility (and the responsibility of American society as a whole, IMO) for various forms of discrimination that have harmed living Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/263 "2019-03-10T17:35:28Z")
If anyone wants to read my detailed thoughts on reparations, you can read them earlier in this thread, starting here: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21509241#post21509241](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21509241#post21509241) continuing over the next few pages. One of the most common objections is the supposed impossibility of actually identifying those living Americans who were harmed by specific policies like redlining. This is a bullshit objection – such detailed identification, even of millions of individuals, has been accomplished before – most notably by Holocaust researchers. They identified literally millions of names of Holocaust victims. And most of that was done without the internet. Identifying which Americans were harmed by various discriminatory policies would be very difficult, but it would indeed be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/264 "2019-03-10T17:39:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fundamental to this discussion is this – do most African Americans feel like they really, truly, and fully, are American citizens, with a reasonable chance at success in life? If they do not (as the polling indicates, in my understanding, along with my anecdotal conversations with black Americans), and if they truly are as discriminated against as the polling indicates most of them believe they are, then something big needs to change. I wonder what polling of asians say to these same questions. Sure, there is a huge difference in degree but there is a noticable level of anti asian discrimination in our society coming from both sides. > [@](#): > > If this is indeed the circumstances of America today (broadly speaking), as I believe it is, then I refuse to accept this as a permanent state of affairs, rather than something that society could actually do something about. I can’t conceive of what might change this other than the type of process that TNC has described (that he calls reparations). This state of affairs exists in every country in every time period throughout history. What makes you think we can legislate it away? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/265 "2019-03-10T17:44:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I wonder what polling of asians say to these same questions. Sure, there is a huge difference in degree but there is a noticable level of anti asian discrimination in our society coming from both sides. Feel free to make such a case. This doesn’t appear to present any conflict to anything I’ve said or advocated for. > [@](#): > > This state of affairs exists in every country in every time period throughout history. What makes you think we can legislate it away? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Every country has its own history, usually with various injustices, and countries address or ignore this history in different ways. Some of these responses have been more or less effective in addressing injustice, IMO. Unless you’re arguing that there’s never any point, ever, in making any effort at all to make up for any historical injustice, even when living people have been harmed, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. And if you are trying to say that, then I disagree, since I think the US, Germany, and other countries have indeed done some good things that makes some progress, which helped society in general, in addressing some past injustices. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/266 "2019-03-10T17:47:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > This is just an astonishingly incorrect summary of the issues at Harvard. That Harvard is [del]possibly[/del] discriminating against Asian-Americans in their “personal ratings” is an important issue that needs to be addressed, but it is not related to affirmative action, and is not benefiting any particular other group at their expense. There is no systemic discrimination against Asian-Americans by African-Americans at Harvard, and the only people alleging so are those who wish to convince you of their own racist, anti-Black agenda. Please don’t fall for it. > . I agree. Anti-asian discrimination is a separate issue from AA. Harvard managed to discriminate against Jews without AA. And AA existed at Harvard before there were enough asians to trigger the anti Asian discrimination. Conflating the two issues is an optical illusion that anti AA folks want to fool you with. It’s political sleight of hand ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/267 "2019-03-10T18:17:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then we hardly need government studies. Anyone who thinks he or she has been harmed can file suit against whoever they think discriminated against them, and present the evidence that shows how and to what extent they have been harmed. The burden of proof is on those making the claim, of course, but that is as it should be. > > Regards, > Shodan Much of the harm is so subtle its almost imperceptible. Too much of the “harm” is more closely correlated to income than race. To the extent income is divided along racial lines due to historical racial injustice, that income disparity is really a race based disparity. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/268 "2019-03-10T18:19:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the harm is great enough and complex enough that it’s not realistic that this will happen, especially when that harm is likely to have caused very reasonable distrust in the entire justice system of the country. And if I’m wrong, the only cost would be the cost of an extensive research program, which would undoubtedly give us a lot of interesting data anyway. I favor more data. I dont think you will get the results you expect and I dont think the right will get the results they expect. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/269 "2019-03-10T18:24:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Feel free to make such a case. This doesn’t appear to present any conflict to anything I’ve said or advocated for. > > I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Every country has its own history, usually with various injustices, and countries address or ignore this history in different ways. Some of these responses have been more or less effective in addressing injustice, IMO. Unless you’re arguing that there’s never any point, ever, in making any effort at all to make up for any historical injustice, even when living people have been harmed, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. And if you are trying to say that, then I disagree, since I think the US, Germany, and other countries have indeed done some good things that makes some progress, which helped society in general, in addressing some past injustices. I think the counterargument for your points sums up to: We have done so much damage to so many people, not only to those who are still living, but in ways that is still causing ongoing harm to even the most current generation that there really is no way to effectively quantify what that damage is, nor how to make those victims whole. Therefore, we will ignore it and hope that it goes away, if it doesn’t, then we will let our children deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/270 "2019-03-10T18:32:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think reparations should come in the form of checks cut out to random black people based on what percentage of their ancestors were black. That’s ridiculous, to me. But what we can do, as a society, is take a look at how the black communities within our societies have been harmed by slavery, racism, discriminatory laws, etc., and spend that money to fix those problems. And we should call it reparations, because it’s important for the healing of this nation that we point out that yes, we WRONGED the black members of our society, and have continued doing so until the present, and in fact in many ways are continuing to do so. And yes, non-blacks will benefit from these policies too. All the better, but we need to focus on the racism so that we push our culture as far away from that as we can. I think this is about where I am. I would stop short of the crit race theory bases of compensation but there is a legacy cost to slavery and segregation and other explicit laws and policies that could probably be studied further. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/271 "2019-03-10T18:41:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay… this is irrelevant to anything I’ve been saying (once again), which is about the US government’s responsibility (and the responsibility of American society as a whole, IMO) for various forms of discrimination that have harmed living Americans. The government’s purpose wasn’t to cause discrimination, it was how the banks \*used that data \*that was discriminatory. Which is why they got sued and people collected. Or perhaps you want the people who sued and collected to collect again? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/272 "2019-03-10T18:43:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … > > One of the most common objections is the supposed impossibility of actually identifying those living Americans who were harmed by specific policies like redlining. … And many of those people who were harmed sued and collected. So, apparently you want people who were _not_ harmed by redlining to collect? Or people who sued to collect again? Redlining is a very bad example. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/273 "2019-03-10T18:46:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … > > I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Every country has its own history, usually with various injustices, and countries address or ignore this history in different ways. Some of these responses have been more or less effective in addressing injustice, IMO. Unless you’re arguing that there’s never any point, ever, in making any effort at all to make up for any historical injustice, even when living people have been harmed, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. And if you are trying to say that, then I disagree, since I think the US, Germany, and other countries have indeed done some good things that makes some progress, which helped society in general, in addressing some past injustices. Sure, but we cant spend ten times our annual budget giveing each black person hundreds of thousands of dollars and then also give back all of America to the natives. The injustices have been addressed in many cases by new laws and in the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/274 "2019-03-10T18:49:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Like I said earlier, it is silly to try to make one person to be to blame for systemic discrimination. > > If you are a black man, and you are turned down for 10 jobs in favor of a white man with the same or lesser qualifications, which of those employers discriminate against you? Which of them should be held to account? > > If multiple people each contribute to a bit of the harm, how do you justify calling just one of them out to be held accountable? The problem with your example is that same issue exusts for asians today. They existed for Jews as well. If you insist on reparations for the background radiation, you get nowhere. You have to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/275 "2019-03-10T18:53:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The government’s purpose wasn’t to cause discrimination, it was how the banks \*used that data \*that was discriminatory. Which is why they got sued and people collected. > > Or perhaps you want the people who sued and collected to collect again? We’ve already hashed this out, and in another thread you even (finally) agreed with me that yes, redlining was in fact discriminatory government policy. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but we cant spend ten times our annual budget giveing each black person hundreds of thousands of dollars and then also give back all of America to the natives. More straw-manning. Yawn. I’ll be here when you want to discuss what I’ve actually proposed and advocated for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/276 "2019-03-10T18:56:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And many of those people who were harmed sued and collected. So, apparently you want people who were _not_ harmed by redlining to collect? Or people who sued to collect again? I’m talking about living Americans who were harmed by discriminatory policies and who have not received justice, which could come in many forms. If you’re arguing that there are no such Americans, then that seems like an utterly ridiculous assertion. If you’re arguing that there are some such Americans, but it’s not worth finding out who they are, or what they deserve, then I’ll disagree with you on principle. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/277 "2019-03-10T19:06:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem with your example is that same issue exusts for asians today. They existed for Jews as well. > > If you insist on reparations for the background radiation, you get nowhere. You have to be more specific. The individual’s right to discrimination is such a cornerstone of society to this day. The strange loners who were shunned by their peers in school and ostracized in the workplace know this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/278 "2019-03-10T19:13:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’ve already hashed this out, and in another thread you even (finally) agreed with me that yes, redlining was in fact discriminatory government policy. > > More straw-manning. Yawn. I’ll be here when you want to discuss what I’ve actually proposed and advocated for. No, I didnt. Yes, the uS govt gave data that the banks used for discriminatory purpose. In fact I have refuted this claim right here in this thread, so you’re not paying attention. Then tell us how much you want to give and to who. The devil \*is \*in the details. This idea is “well, let’s all agree we do have to pay reparations= then we’ll tell you how much after you agree” is bogus. If _your_ guilt is bothering you, why not make a nice donation to the NAACP and stop trying to pick\* our\* pockets for _your_ guilt? I have no guilt on this. My ancestors didnt keep black slaves. On my mother side they came from eastern Europe and on my Dads side they made them sign up for the Union army pretty much the day they arrived. So, we fought to end slavery. But of course- the millions of lives and billions of dollars the government spent to end slavery dont matter to the repartions crowd. They want their forty acres and a mule plus 150 years of interest, despite that fact that the Government never promised any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/279 "2019-03-10T19:15:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m talking about living Americans who were harmed by discriminatory policies and who have not received justice, which could come in many forms. If you’re arguing that there are no such Americans, then that seems like an utterly ridiculous assertion. If you’re arguing that there are some such Americans, but it’s not worth finding out who they are, or what they deserve, then I’ll disagree with you on principle. Tell us exactly who, then? You can’t? You just _know_ there are, eh? Then find them, who is stopping you? Or you dont think there are Non-profits capable of doing so? Why pick _my_ pocket to assuage _your_ guilt? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/280 "2019-03-10T19:16:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, I didnt. Yes, the uS govt gave data that the banks used for discriminatory purpose. In fact I have refuted this claim right here in this thread, so you’re not paying attention. It was US agency guidelines, not just bank decisions, that were discriminatory. The US lending agencies categorized areas based on factors like “desirability” of the populations within. If you’re saying that in the early 20th century, these _US government guidelines about “desirability” of a population_ had nothing to do with race, then I have a bridge to sell you. > [@](#): > > Then tell us how much you want to give and to who. > > The devil \*is \*in the details. > > This idea is “well, let’s all agree we do have to pay reparations= then we’ll tell you how much after you agree” is bogus. > > If _your_ guilt is bothering you, why not make a nice donation to the NAACP and stop trying to pick\* our\* pockets for _your_ guilt? I have no guilt on this. My ancestors didnt keep black slaves. On my mother side they came from eastern Europe and on my Dads side they made them sign up for the Union army pretty much the day they arrived. So, we fought to end slavery. But of course- the millions of lives and billions of dollars the government spent to end slavery dont matter to the repartions crowd. They want their forty acres and a mule plus 150 years of interest, despite that fact that the Government never promised any such thing. None of this has anything to do with what I’ve said. If you want to respond to my actual posts, please be specific. Show me the actual things I’ve proposed that you disagree with. Not this straw-manning nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186.md?page=15)