# Reparations are never going to happen so why do some democrats come out in favor of them... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186 "2019-02-25T17:22:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/61 "2019-02-27T02:38:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why not the third? They already got their reparations. Did they? I was under the impression that the “40 acres and a mule” thing was a promise almost entirely unfulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/62 "2019-02-27T04:02:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Did they? I was under the impression that the “40 acres and a mule” thing was a promise almost entirely unfulfilled. Read my post 54, maybe 5000 got land, but no, there was no such promise. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/63 "2019-02-27T05:02:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It wouldn’t be ‘White people’ It would be the US government, as an institution, which failed to live up the ideals it was supposed to uphold for all people within its jurisdiction making redress, and that’s how I expect it would be marketed. That may be how you see it, but pundits left and right would be highlighting that “this is being paid for via taxation out of our pockets; yours and mine.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/64 "2019-02-27T05:30:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It wouldn’t be ‘White people’ It would be the US government, as an institution, which failed to live up the ideals it was supposed to uphold for all people within its jurisdiction making redress, and that’s how I expect it would be marketed. The US Government has no money of it’s own, only that which is can collect from us, the taxpayers. And the US Government freed the slaves, passed the 14th Ad, passed the Civil Rights act and so forth. Maybe all a little late, but it was done. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/65 "2019-02-27T13:57:16Z")
Yay, we fixed it all!! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/66 "2019-02-27T14:00:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That may be how you see it, but pundits left and right would be highlighting that “this is being paid for via taxation out of our pockets; yours and mine.” Quite obviously, which is why the Overton window needs to be shifted before it could be enacted. I think the kind of study TNC suggested would be in the realm of acceptable in the present, and that could lead to further actions meant to shift the window, such as my proposed long-term single-community experiment. If that experiment showed that reparations had an enormously positive, long-term effect on a community, then that might help shift perceptions considerably. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/67 "2019-02-27T15:56:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Personally, and off the top of my head, I’d advocate for a controlled, long-term experiment – take a single small town or community of African Americans, give those that have been financially impacted by the policies studied reparations based on the level of harm, and study that community for the next 10 years or so to see what the impact is. Most of the same objections exist to a small-scale experiment as to a full policy. Once we pay them, do they no longer get welfare? Do we reduce welfare for them, because the history that caused them to be on welfare has already been repaid? OK, the Washington Monument was built partly by slave labor, who didn’t get paid, and the rest of the country got the value of the Washington Monument. The descendants of the slaves also got the value of the Washington Monument. How much do we deduct from the reparations to offset that? Slaves were supposed to get forty acres and a mule. What do they get if they are half black - twenty acres and a border collie? Plus the whole notion of “my ancestors did something bad to your ancestors, so you owe money to me” is flawed. Should I get money because a black guy mugged my grandmother? That’s a lot more immediate than 150 years ago. And my ancestors weren’t even in this country during the antebellum period - they came over from Germany around the turn of the century. If blacks should get reparations because they were descended from slaves, then they will need to show that they were descended from slaves, and also prove that the people giving them reparations were descended from slave-owners. It’s too late. Slavery was nasty, but everybody who was a slave or owned a slave is dead. We’re not going to give the country back to the Native Americans, and we aren’t going to give reparations to black people. The statute of limitations, so to speak, is over. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/68 "2019-02-27T16:06:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Read my post 54, maybe 5000 got land, but no, there was no such promise. Well, we could debate the meaning of “promise”, but I’ll buy for the sake of argument that 5000 freed slaves got plots of land after the war. Were they able to keep them, enjoy them, profit from them like any white landowner of similar holdings? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/69 "2019-02-27T16:09:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s too late. Slavery was nasty, but everybody who was a slave or owned a slave is dead. We’re not going to give the country back to the Native Americans, and we aren’t going to give reparations to black people. The statute of limitations, so to speak, is over. Systematic race-based oppression in America didn’t end when slavery did. Arguably, it never ended at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/70 "2019-02-27T16:52:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Most of the same objections exist to a small-scale experiment as to a full policy. > > Once we pay them, do they no longer get welfare? Do we reduce welfare for them, because the history that caused them to be on welfare has already been repaid? > > OK, the Washington Monument was built partly by slave labor, who didn’t get paid, and the rest of the country got the value of the Washington Monument. The descendants of the slaves also got the value of the Washington Monument. How much do we deduct from the reparations to offset that? > > Slaves were supposed to get forty acres and a mule. What do they get if they are half black - twenty acres and a border collie? > > Plus the whole notion of “my ancestors did something bad to your ancestors, so you owe money to me” is flawed. Should I get money because a black guy mugged my grandmother? That’s a lot more immediate than 150 years ago. > > And my ancestors weren’t even in this country during the antebellum period - they came over from Germany around the turn of the century. If blacks should get reparations because they were descended from slaves, then they will need to show that they were descended from slaves, and also prove that the people giving them reparations were descended from slave-owners. > > It’s too late. Slavery was nasty, but everybody who was a slave or owned a slave is dead. We’re not going to give the country back to the Native Americans, and we aren’t going to give reparations to black people. The statute of limitations, so to speak, is over. > > Regards, > Shodan Most of this is entirely irrelevant to what I’ve been saying, since I haven’t been advocating for reparations for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/71 "2019-02-27T17:04:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m continually dismayed by the knee-jerk opposition to even the idea of discussing reparations, which usually ignores the fact that most discussion isn’t just about slavery, or often isn’t about slavery at all. A whole lot of that is pretty much due to the widespread perception that reparations are essentially some kind of personal check from the Federal government to individuals for a crime perpetrated on their ancestors. As such, it tweaks several things- first, there’s the notion that some black guy today doesn’t deserve a cash payout for something that happened to his great, great, great grandparents (for example). Second, there’s a sort of idea that it’s a sort of… admission of guilt by the government, and through it, by the American people for something that none of the currently living people did. I can see why people might think “That guy doesn’t deserve my money for something someone else 150 years ago did to his ancestors. I haven’t done anything to any black people.” The politicians seriously proposing any sort of reparations that are not individual cash payouts ought to come up with another term- historical redress or something, and pitch it not so much as paying a debt, as redressing wrongs. I mean, few people are going to get that torqued about a Federal program intended to address the effects of redlining that happened in living memory, but a lot of people may get torqued at the idea that the government \*OWES \*it to them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/72 "2019-02-27T17:21:25Z")
We already have a system in place, and have had for some time, that addresses the same goals without getting into the unsolvable mess of who specifically can trace responsibility for what to whom - it’s called affirmative action. The idea is based on awareness that the effects of racism (and all the other -isms, which is why it’s a better idea) that have historical roots continue to persist, that disadvantages are imposed on people of color even if unconsciously, and that direct action needs to be taken for some period of time to address those inequities. Only a fraction of today’s population is descended directly either from slaves or from slaveowners or even slavery-benefitters, but racism and unequal opportunities are widespread and endemic regardless of individual histories. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/73 "2019-02-27T17:36:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What about what Ta-Nehisi Coates (and I) have advocated – Congress formally investigating the details of how various institutional discriminatory policies and practices have financially harmed living Americans of color? Would that make you angry, and do you think that would lead to “widespread violence”? This is an obviously impossible task. Do you expect people to have documentary proof of being denied a housing loan fifty years ago? Or for an agency to have a record of every black person they wronged? When the government says that they are going to give free money for anyone with a sob story they will be deluged with people. For example, when the USDA was sued by 401 black farmers who claimed they were discriminated against in loans. When the USDA settled the case and announced they were going to give money to black farmers who had been discriminated against they received over 90,000 applicants despite there only being 33,000 black farmers in the entire country. All people had to do was to have a relative swear that at some point in the time period they had attempted to farm. There are two possible alternatives, either you require actual proof of harm which almost no one will have or you trust people’s word and be inundated with fraudulent claims. Either case will enrage people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/74 "2019-02-27T17:37:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We already have a system in place, and have had for some time, that addresses the same goals without getting into the unsolvable mess of who specifically can trace responsibility for what to whom - it’s called affirmative action. The idea is based on awareness that the effects of racism (and all the other -isms, which is why it’s a better idea) that have historical roots continue to persist, that disadvantages are imposed on people of color even if unconsciously, and that direct action needs to be taken for some period of time to address those inequities. Only a fraction of today’s population is descended directly either from slaves or from slaveowners or even slavery-benefitters, but racism and unequal opportunities are widespread and endemic regardless of individual histories. AA is meant to ensure black people and other discriminated-against groups have as fair a shot as possible in their educational and professional lives in a profoundly tilted/biased society. That’s different than the purpose of reparations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/75 "2019-02-27T17:43:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is an obviously impossible task. Do you expect people to have documentary proof of being denied a housing loan fifty years ago? Or for an agency to have a record of every black person they wronged? When the government says that they are going to give free money for anyone with a sob story they will be deluged with people. > > For example, when the USDA was sued by 401 black farmers who claimed they were discriminated against in loans. When the USDA settled the case and announced they were going to give money to black farmers who had been discriminated against they received over 90,000 applicants despite there only being 33,000 black farmers in the entire country. All people had to do was to have a relative swear that at some point in the time period they had attempted to farm. > > There are two possible alternatives, either you require actual proof of harm which almost no one will have or you trust people’s word and be inundated with fraudulent claims. Either case will enrage people. There’s a third option – actually investigate with professional historians, lawyers, geographers, researchers, etc. Redlining isn’t ancient history – it’s within living memory. In most cases I think it’s reasonable to believe that it would be challenging, but not impossible, to accurately determine whether someone was or was not living in a redlined (or segregated, or otherwise harmed by various discriminatory policies) area. There are all kinds of records, including people’s individual records, that could be looked at, in addition to testimony. If Ann has proof she lived at 10 Spring St, and Carl has proof he lived at 14 Spring St, and then Bob comes and says he lived at 12 Spring St but has no proof, then we could ask Ann and Carl if Bob lived there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/76 "2019-02-27T17:49:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AA is meant to ensure black people and other discriminated-against groups have as fair a shot as possible in their educational and professional lives in a profoundly tilted/biased society. That’s different than the purpose of reparations. Yes, because it’s comprehensive and societal. The purpose of reparations is far more limited and self-serving, but is still contained within the goals of AA, which does indeed address the continuing effects of slavery as well as most other forms of historic mistreatment. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/77 "2019-02-27T18:30:00Z")
There’s also a claim that slavery was \*already \*paid for, by the lives of over 600,000 people in the Civil War. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/78 "2019-02-27T19:09:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, because it’s comprehensive and societal. The purpose of reparations is far more limited and self-serving, but is still contained within the goals of AA, which does indeed address the continuing effects of slavery as well as most other forms of historic mistreatment. I strongly disagree with your second assertion; I’ll quote myself from earlier in this thread on what I believe is the main purpose of the concept of reparations: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Discussions about reparations are only partly about finances. The ultimate goal is about morality and community – to ensure, as much as possible, that all Americans believe that they have a stake in society, and that society has a stake in them. 50% of black Americans report that they, personally, have been mistreated by law enforcement, as opposed to 3% (IIRC) of white Americans (I’ve cited this poll many times – I can find it again if anyone would like). Due to their own experiences, and the experiences of their parents and grandparents, it’s my understanding that a very significant portion of African Americans very reasonably believe they live in a white supremacist society, in which they don’t have a reasonable chance to succeed. A big part of changing this very reasonable perception would be (from the point of view of proponents of considering reparations and similar policies) a very great gesture on the part of society as a whole – I don’t think such a gesture would be possible by any institution other than the US federal government. Not just to the point of ensuring that they are treated equally by any and all institutions in society (though that is obviously necessary), but demonstrating that society as a whole recognizes the misdeeds perpetrated against them and is making some significant attempt to make up for those misdeeds. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/79 "2019-02-27T19:10:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s also a claim that slavery was \*already \*paid for, by the lives of over 600,000 people in the Civil War. FWIW. This is an utterly ridiculous claim, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186/80 "2019-02-27T19:20:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I strongly disagree with your second assertion I fail to see any disagreement. In fact, the societal problems that I point out are addressed with AA, although perhaps incompletely, would be only barely addressed if at all by cash payments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-are-never-going-to-happen-so-why-do-some-democrats-come-out-in-favor-of-them/830186.md?page=5)