# Reparations for Jim Crow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252 "2008-11-24T15:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/201 "2008-11-28T17:10:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There’s something I don’t get. > > 1. Are you suggesting a civil lawsuit? Because I doubt whether that would go anywhere because of statues of limitations. In the case of Jim Crow, that may very well be the case. No one has presented a cite that shows statutes of limitations being applied to claims of civil rights violations, though. But I doubt that the statute of limitations is the primary reason why this debate has continued for so long (on this board and elsewhere). A person could take **Sampiro’s** position in 1958 (or 1968…or 1978) as easily as he could take it today. > [@](#): > > 1. Are you suggesting legislative actions on the federal or state level? Because I think that’s a political nonstarter. As in a bill authorizing blanket reparations to Jim Crow victims, without proof of harm? It’s not impossible. The interned Japanese received reparations through this option. The only reason why it would be a political nonstarter is that people are simply sick of black people “whining”…even when the “whining” is completely justified. > [@](#): > > 1. Are you making a moral argument, that victims of civil rights violations have a moral right to compensation? I don’t think anyone has a right to compensation. They have a right to be heard fair and square. After being given a fair shake, if a court decides they don’t have a case, then they don’t have a right to anything. I don’t think this is a question of morals, but of fairness and consistency. If we have decided that it’s okay for people to receive financial compensation for demonstrable harm–whether that harm be financial or not–then that means people should feel free to seek compensation for demonstrable harm. Whether the defendent is the guy next door, their employer, or their own government. Believing otherwise is to believe the government is above the law when it’s not. I _don’t_ think there should be blanket reparations handed out to _anyone_, including the interned Japanese. But the world continued to turn after they received $20,000, and so shall it if Jim Crow victims were to receive the same benefit. > [@](#): > > I’m guessing yes (among others), and it seems that you have acknowledged the problem that different victims received differing harm. Here I think you have a point except that, > > a. this is rather cold comfort, > b. most of the (white) beneficiaries of Jim Crow are dead, > c. most (not all) of the said advantages I’m guessing were non-monetary and > d. as they say in Alabama, if you want to keep a man in a ditch, you have to climb in the ditch with him. Meaning that states with the worst Jim Crow tended to be poorest _because as policy it made no (fucking) sense_. a) is true b) true, but as I’ve said before, it doesn’t matter. Most of the people who interned the Japanese were dead (including the president who signed the order) when they got their reparations. When you are talking about institutions, it doesn’t matter _who_ did what. All that matters is if the actions taken by individuals were institutional policy. If so, then you have a case. c) not necessarily. For instance, colored schools received less funding than white schools, which means white schools received more funding. Which means that black taxpayers weren’t able to reap the full benefits of their tax dollars. Not every case can be tied to money, but a lot of them can. And as I’ve said before, you can receive compensation by the legal system for non-financial harm. So this is actually a moot point. > [@](#): > > None of those points undermine the moral argument by the way: they just elaborate upon the sort of logistical complexity which **monstro** acknowledged. I think the logistical questions are secondary to the issue of whether reparations are owed. They are important considerations, but only _after_ a case has been ruled valid or not. My point is, why block someone from proving their case by citing logistics? You haven’t even heard their case. You don’t even know how much compensation they’re asking for. It could be a million bucks or it could be a dollar. Furthermore, as the case of interned Japanese show us, negotiations can be made so that all parties are satistified. The victims first asked for $25,000, and the final pay-out was $20,000. That’s how settlements work. > [@](#): > > I go back to the warfare example. Wars happen, vicious injustices occur and we move on. I think this is a pretty romantic view of true victimhood. If a government sends forces onto your property, stealing and raping and violating, you aren’t going to just shrug your shoulders and forgive and forget. Especially if you haven’t declared war on anyone, and the government makes defending yourself against these attacks illegal. Wars are a mutual fight between two or more parties. Who were black people fighting? I think it’s unfair to liken civil rights violations like Jim Crow with war. It’s oppression, plain and simple. > [@](#): > > Tulsa and Tuskagee come to mind, as do certain murder cases. I think we’re familiar with the “big time” stories, the ones that had enough sparkle to make it into the press. But there are no doubt numerous incidents that never garnered any attention and yet sucked big time for the people involved. I think we’d be making a mistake to limit claims to only the famous events. I’d just like to say, **Measure for Measure** , that you’re the only person in this thread who I feel I’ve had a thoughtful conversation with. Thanks so much for sticking around and really listening to what I’ve had to say, and giving me something to think about as well. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/202 "2008-11-28T17:32:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Would anyone like to continue this discussion as a **Great Debate**? > Or should I simply move it to the **BBQ Pit** where most of you seem to want to hash it out? > > [/Modding] No, I don’t. By moving it to the Pit, you’re saying that nothing worthwhile is to be gotten out of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/203 "2008-11-29T05:17:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Has anyone asked you about the irony of wanting to continue to set aside a class of people based on their skin color and handing them benefits, while at the same time decrying racism? How can a group all be equal if a part of it goes about demanding special treatment? > > (My apologies if this has been discussed - I skimmed the thread and didn’t see anything) We can actually start the ball rolling by creating a country where the playing field is level because currently it is not. Whites receive benefits and special treatment because of the color of their skin and no one is decrying this. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/204 "2008-11-29T05:43:56Z")
> [@Cowboy8467](#): > > Is this even a serious OP? Thanks, Cowboy! Moderators… have you ever noticed that this quote is ALWAYS the first reply to ANY of Jesus Harold Christ’s OPs? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/205 "2008-11-29T05:51:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No, I don’t. By moving it to the Pit, you’re saying that nothing worthwhile is to be gotten out of this thread. No, by moving it to the Pit, (as opposed to simply closing it), I would be saying that if you folks cannot discuss the issue without making every exchange a personal feud, then I will let you continue your bickering in an appropriate forum. If I see posters back away from the personal slams, I will be quite happy to leave the thread here. (Someone who wishes to keep the thread in this forum might want to talk to the OP privately, explaining how this place works, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/206 "2008-11-29T05:52:33Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I promised to drop out of this thread and I have kept that promise up until now; PLEASE send this abortion to the Pit and give me and others a chance to explain to the OP just exactly how we actually feel about him. You are free to open your own, separate thread in the Pit, rather than dragging this thread off course. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/207 "2008-11-29T06:00:14Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > But maybe a close relative? I am not sure what idea you thought you were conveying, here, but I see more potential insults (and even slurs) than anything else, so you might want to be very careful and very clear in future posts. > [@Locrian](#): > > Moderators… have you ever noticed that this quote > is ALWAYS the first reply to ANY of Jesus Harold Christ’s OPs? I have noticed that the written word is not **JHC** ’s strongest suit. For better or worse, coherence and an ability to convey all one’s thoughts with perfect clarity are not requirements to post on the SDMB, and I am not going to take any action regarding posting privileges based on deficits in those areas. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/208 "2008-11-29T20:18:15Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > We can actually start the ball rolling by creating a country where the playing field is level because currently it is not. Whites receive benefits and special treatment because of the color of their skin and no one is decrying this. Why is that? Really? Where can I take advantage of this? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/209 "2008-11-29T20:39:56Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Whites receive benefits and special treatment because of the color of their skin and no one is decrying this. Why is that? If this is the case, wouldn’t it be better to remove the pro-white discrimination, instead of introducing anti-white discrimination to try to balance it? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/210 "2008-11-30T23:52:15Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Really? Where can I take advantage of this? Where do you as a white person take advantage of your white privilege? You and a similiarly dressed black person go into a store or restaurant when you come out compare notes with the black person with regard to treatment, service etc. You and a similiarly dressed and credentialed black person go for a job interview, see who gets the job. You and a similiary dressed black person with the same financial history go to a real estate agent, when you’re done compare notes on whether or not your shown houses or apartments in the same neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/211 "2008-11-30T23:54:17Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If this is the case, wouldn’t it be better to remove the pro-white discrimination, instead of introducing anti-white discrimination to try to balance it? Sure it would. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/212 "2008-11-30T23:59:19Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You and a similiarly dressed and credentialed black person go for a job interview, see who gets the job. Black person, 9 times out of 10, unless you live in Klanville or someplace. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/213 "2008-12-01T00:05:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Black person, 9 times out of 10, unless you live in Klanville or someplace. [http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hiring100803a.html](http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hiring100803a.html) > [@](#): > > Devah Pager, a sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., sent equally matched pairs of testers - two black and two white - to apply for low-skilled jobs at 350 places of employment in the Milwaukee area and found that white ex-offenders were more likely to be called back for an interview than black applicants who had no criminal record. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/214 "2008-12-01T00:25:27Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > [http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hiring100803a.html](http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hiring100803a.html) [Back at you.](http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political%5CThe_Allan_Bakke_Case-321957.htm) > [@](#): > > In 1973 a thirty-three year-old Caucasian male named Allan > Bakke applied to and was denied admission to the University > of California Medical School at Davis. In 1974 he filed > another application and was once again rejected, even > though his test scores were considerably higher than > various minorities that were admitted under a special > program. I’ve been a victim of it myself. “Sorry, we have too many white men. Too bad you aren’t black or female and/or both. We’d totally take you.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/215 "2008-12-01T00:39:55Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > [Back at you.](http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political%5CThe_Allan_Bakke_Case-321957.htm) > > I’ve been a victim of it myself. “Sorry, we have too many white men. Too bad you aren’t black or female and/or both. We’d totally take you.” And Bakke had his complaint affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1978. So, for 20 years, there has been legal precedent to prevent “reverse discrimination” while numeous studies similar to the one cited by **EasyPhil** continue to demonstrate that the old fashioned discrimination continues to go on. (Racial preferences in the field of education have continued, to a certain extent, based on an argument of “diversity,” but in the day-to-day world of manufactureing, sales, accounting, as well as the realms of housing, anti-black discrimination, while greatly reduced from the 1960s, continues.) ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/216 "2008-12-01T00:55:50Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > [Back at you.](http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political%5CThe_Allan_Bakke_Case-321957.htm) > > I’ve been a victim of it myself. “Sorry, we have too many white men. Too bad you aren’t black or female and/or both. We’d totally take you.” Bakke and the Milwaukee study are not equivalent. No one disputes that the great majority of students admitted to the medical school in question were white. Bakke himself was admitted to another, comparable medical school. The Milwaukee study, and a number of other test studies have continued to find outright exclusion of blacks from some companies and some jobs. It’s the height of silliness to claim to be a victim when the great majority of wealth and power in the country is controlled by people who look like you. You are either woefully ignorant, or you’re making a disingenuous argument in defense of your own privilege. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/217 "2008-12-01T01:08:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And Bakke had his complaint affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1978. So, for 20 years, there has been legal precedent to prevent “reverse discrimination” while numeous studies similar to the one cited by **EasyPhil** continue to demonstrate that the old fashioned discrimination continues to go on. > > (Racial preferences in the field of education have continued, to a certain extent, based on an argument of “diversity,” but in the day-to-day world of manufactureing, sales, accounting, as well as the realms of housing, anti-black discrimination, while greatly reduced from the 1960s, continues.) I don’t know why you put that last part in parenthesis. Anyway, **EasyPhil** is talking about “350 places of employment” but I bet you that’s not the big employers. Bubba’s Car Repair may indeed discriminate. He wants his bros, or chicks with big boobs, but the big employers aren’t turning away minorities or women when they have quotas to fill and qualifications be damned. “Realms of housing or anti-black discrimination in general” is a separate issue. I defy you to show me how [The top 100 employers in the US](http://nyjobsource.com/largestemployers.html) are discriminating against blacks. That list doesn’t include military, postal, and federal civil servants who number around [14-15 million](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/05/AR2006100501782.html). [QUOTE=Belowjob2.0] It’s the height of silliness to claim to be a victim when the great majority of wealth and power in the country is controlled by people who look like you. [/QUOTE] OMG, that silly old argument. Right. Bill Gates proves I’m rich. Oprah Winfrey proves blacks are rich. What are we all complaining about? We’re all rich! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/218 "2008-12-01T02:26:37Z")
Not to tax your rudimentary reasoning skills, but that’s not the claim I made. The point is not that Bill Gates runs a major US corporation. The point is that almost every major US corporation is run by a white person. The great majority of business and governmental institutions in the US are run by white people. Again, the majority of students in the medical school were white. No evidence that white students were being excluded on the basis of race. None. The medical school admissions staff testified during the trial that Bakke had been passed over in favor of \*\*white \*\*students with lower grades and test scores, because their interests, backgrounds, and personalities made them likelier to be better doctors, in the view of the admissions staff. You’re not a victim. Neither was Bakke, in any meaningful way. The “I couldn’t get in because I was a white guy” is pretty much crap. The more honest statement would be, “I couldn’t get in because I didn’t score as high or interview as well as the white guys who did get in.” It’s tough to admit that you’re a second rater, so you fall back on the “white guy as victim” trope. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/219 "2008-12-01T02:41:30Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The “I couldn’t get in because I was a white guy” is pretty much crap. The more honest statement would be, “I couldn’t get in because I didn’t score as high or interview as well as the white guys who did get in.” Oh, right. So, if we’re black, we need to just compete against other blacks, no matter what their scores are. If it turns out our scores are ten times lower than whites, we’ll cry racism when people don’t want black doctors. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252/220 "2008-12-01T03:31:59Z")
First it was gays who have it worse than blacks. Now it’s whites? I wish **Sampiro** was here to remind us about wallowing in victimhood again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-for-jim-crow/474252.md?page=12)