# Reparations Revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969 "2014-02-22T20:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/41 "2014-02-23T21:41:40Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I am thinking Canada and Europe for the most part; I can also envision Venezuela, Argentina, Iran, Russia, and China absorbing a large portion of the black population in order embarrass to the U.S. Paying the immigrants not to work means they are permanent tourist who will buy goods and services thus contributing to the host country’s economy. Blacks who get reparations will allowed to work, payments simply ensure that their income never falls below the median income of their region. and what happens when the Canadians, Europeans, Venezuelans, etc. see massive numbers of residents getting what amounts to enhanced welfare courtesy of the US? Just as in the states people up here are often less than sympathetic to people getting free money. Can you say “lazy welfare bum”? (yes, I know, strictly speaking it would be different from welfare legally, but not in the minds of citizens seeing all these newcomers getting money for nothing). > [@Honesty](#): > > Um, the U.S has the money for a reparation program. You’ll just have to raise taxes or sell territorial assets like Guam or the Marshall Islands. The U.S can sell its gold and oil reserves, and heck, I’m sure the Interstate Highway System can be sold for at least a cool trillion - and, frankly, since the electorate refuses to pay to fix it\*, you might as well sell it anyway before another bridge collapses. and do you REALLY think your electorate would go along with the massive increase in taxes or loss of assets that implementing this scheme would require? The fact that many people don’t like blacks (both up here and down there) doesn’t mean that they would be ready to put their money where their mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/42 "2014-02-23T22:08:41Z")
Honesty, could you please answer my question since it was obvious you were inspired by the assassination of Malcom X at the hands of the Nation of Islam? In case you missed it, here it is. > [@](#): > > Honesty, since you were obviously inspired to do this by the anniversary of the assassination of Malcolm X at the hands of the Nation of Islam a couple of questions. > > Do you think the Nation of Islam should pay “reparations” to the family of Malcolm X for his killing and would you favor for pushing for an investigation by the Federal government into the question of Louis Farrakhan’s role in the murder of Malcolm X in front of his family? > > Did you also find it disgusting how many African-American supporters of Malcolm X showed up at Louis Farrakhan’s “Million Man March”, many of who were so stupid they wore X baseball caps while cheering for Louis Farrakhan as he gave his three-and-a-half hour speech on numerology? > > Also, since it was revealed in his most recent, Pulitzer Prize winning biography that Malcolm X was a closeted gay man do you think that information should be regularly taught about Malcolm X as a way to emphasize the commonality of the struggle for both black and gay equality? Thank you in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/43 "2014-02-23T22:52:56Z")
What if, like Obama, you are black but your ancestors came here after slavery was abolished? Do they get reparations too? If not, why would I have to pay if my ancestors didn’t come to this is country until the 1900s? If yes, then these aren’t really reparations in the sense the word was originally used. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/44 "2014-02-23T22:57:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Honesty, could you please answer my question since it was obvious you were inspired by the assassination of Malcom X at the hands of the Nation of Islam? > > In case you missed it, here it is. > > Thank you in advance. **Ibn Warraq** , if you would like to discuss the question of Malcolm X’s gayness, or lack thereof, I have created another thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716543) to avoid a hijack. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/45 "2014-02-23T22:58:15Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > What if, like Obama, you are black but your ancestors came here after slavery was abolished? Do they get reparations too? If not, why would I have to pay if my ancestors didn’t come to this is country until the 1900s? If yes, then these aren’t really reparations in the sense the word was originally used. Under this hypothetical, if the US has to pay, that means all Americans kick in their share. All Americans includes all black Americans, by the way. Just like any other government expense. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/46 "2014-02-23T23:18:18Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > What if, like Obama, you are black but your ancestors came here after slavery was abolished? Do they get reparations too? If not, why would I have to pay if my ancestors didn’t come to this is country until the 1900s? If yes, then these aren’t really reparations in the sense the word was originally used. An additional question. Since Obama’s mother is white and he has some Irish ancestry, his father was Kenyan and never a descendant of African slaves, is he still covered under the reparations plan? And how about me? Are we going back to the “one drop rule?” I have at least one slave descendant in my long family history. The family has been in this country since the late 1600’s, and they/we are a horny lot. But I am currently an overly entitled, upper middle class, very white guy now. My family tree looks like a spiders web. I want my money! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/47 "2014-02-23T23:25:17Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > An additional question. Since Obama’s mother is white and he has some Irish ancestry, his father was Kenyan and never a descendant of African slaves, is he still covered under the reparations plan? > > And how about me? Are we going back to the “one drop rule?” I have at least one slave descendant in my long family history. The family has been in this country since the late 1600’s, and they/we are a horny lot. > > But I am currently an overly entitled, upper middle class, very white guy now. My family tree looks like a spiders web. > > I want my money! Just send in your cheek swab and wait. One more thing - your neighbors are now willing to buy your house at twice the market rate so long as you move out by the end of the month. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/48 "2014-02-23T23:32:48Z")
Would the payment be based on percentage of African blood and time of oppression. What if I have 4 white great-grandparents and 4 black ones? Let’s say one of the latter is from Mozambique and never set foot on the US. Lets say another was born free in the North in 1854. Let’s say another was born free on former-slave parent in 1877 and one was born a slave. What is the formula? Does having white ancestry mean you get less or is it irrelevant? What if your African ancestry connects you to those African who captured/sold other Africans to Europeans? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/49 "2014-02-23T23:34:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** , if you would like to discuss the question of Malcolm X’s gayness, or lack thereof, I have created another thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716543) to avoid a hijack. > > Regards, > Shodan That wasn’t the principal question I had. I was more interested in Honesty’s view of whether or not the Nation of Islam should compensate Malcolm’s family for murdering him as well as his feelings regarding Louis Farrakhan and the way so many people who professed to be admirers of him were also fans of Farrakhan. In retrospect, I wish I hadn’t mentioned the last part mentioned in Manning Marable’s biography. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/50 "2014-02-23T23:38:49Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Would the payment be based on percentage of African blood and time of oppression. > > What if I have 4 white great-grandparents and 4 black ones? Let’s say one of the latter is from Mozambique and never set foot on the US. Lets say another was born free in the North in 1854. Let’s say another was born free on former-slave parent in 1877 and one was born a slave. > > What is the formula? > Does having white ancestry mean you get less or is it irrelevant? > What if your African ancestry connects you to those African who captured/sold other Africans to Europeans? The way the US does it for Native American (indigenous) benefits is based on descent from enrolled tribe members. Actual DNA % is irrelevant. > **[Blood quantum laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws)** > > Blood quantum laws or Indian blood laws are laws that define Native Americans in the United States status by fractions of Native American ancestry. These laws were enacted by the federal government and state governments as a way to establish legally defined racial population groups. By contrast, many tribes do not include blood quantum as part of their own enrollment criteria. Blood quantum laws were first imposed by white settlers in the 18th century. Blood quantum (BQ) continues to be a controv... ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/51 "2014-02-23T23:43:00Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The way the US does it for Native American (indigenous) benefits is based on descent from enrolled tribe members. Actual DNA % is irrelevant. > > [Blood quantum laws - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws) There are no equivalent “black tribes” with enrollment records. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/52 "2014-02-23T23:47:37Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > There are no equivalent “black tribes” with enrollment records. Sure there are. Census records with the designation of “Negro” or “Colored.” Again, one fatal flaw here is that white people can do genealogy research too, and those with slave ancestors will be looking for their cut. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/53 "2014-02-24T01:35:10Z")
This is laughable and these sort of arguments only serve to aid Republican straw-manning when they liberals and Democrats believe in reparations. By this logic, reparations are justified from Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya for Italy and Spain in return for the Barbary Coast slaver raids. Racial affirmative actions does little to help most blacks and instead drives a wedge between working-class whites and blacks than the right-wing can exploit. It would be better for progressives to focus on improving the lot of all Americans through strengthening and expanding social programs. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/54 "2014-02-24T02:09:40Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Sure there are. Census records with the designation of “Negro” or “Colored.” > > Again, one fatal flaw here is that white people can do genealogy research too, and those with slave ancestors will be looking for their cut. You do realise the difference between a census form and an enrollment record for a tribe, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/55 "2014-02-24T06:20:31Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Okay, Honesty, you win. I completely agree with your plan and will lobby my representatives in Washington and in Arkansas to implement them as quickly as possible. Forget lobbying your representatives in Arkansas for reparations. How can everyone so casually ignore the elephant in the room? Are you all so callous? > [@Honesty](#): > > Then, when we _finally_ get an African-American president, **these same slave-holding states** send an unprecedented wave of anti-government representatives to make sure that the President does not succeed. I for one am appalled to hear that there are slave-holding states in the Union in 2014. How can we possibly discuss reparations while human beings are still being held in chattel slavery in states like Arkansas? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/56 "2014-02-24T13:44:49Z")
Are you going to send reparation to the British for stealing our colonies? Makes as much fucking sense as your proposal… ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/57 "2014-02-25T00:47:50Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Something for reparationists to consider: > > External migration isn’t necessary at all. Think internal migrations instead. > > Right now, MD, DE, VA, NC, GA, and AL are all, more or less, a quarter black in population. SC is 1/3 black, as is LA. MS is a bit less than half black. If the black population that lives outside of these states migrates into them, you have 8 black majority states, control of those states’ governments, with a corresponding number of votes in the Senate and House. > > Now, political power is useless without corresponding economic power, and this is really the sticking point. The means of gaining such power when you have little are painful, and/or risky. Savings, investment, business startups, skill development and educational credentials in STEM fields are tough to do for everyone. All these things are particularly tough when you have hundreds of years of experience being punished by the larger society for acquiring, or attempting to acquire these things. > > Still, there isn’t any way around it. Savings, investment, business startups, skill development and educational credentials in STEM fields are the only way to get the economic power that gives you a decent measure of autonomy. Autonomy in this case being the capacity to resist American style anti-black racism. When you own it, and you run it, you’re not at anyone else’s mercy. > > Now this is a very hard way to go, and it would take generations to achieve under the best of circumstances, but there aren’t many practical alternatives. If you emigrate to foreign countries, the problem of acquiring economic power remains, but it’s made all the more difficult because you don’t have the potential advantage of working in synergy with political power. I agree with you here except I don’t believe the States will be complicit in allowing blacks to gain power locally. I think you’ll get what you have now: previous slave-holding, Southern states scrambling to curtail suffrage of African-Americans while the federal government looks on with mild indifference. [QUOTE=Toxgoddess] What if, like Obama, you are black but your ancestors came here after slavery was abolished? Do they get reparations too? If not, why would I have to pay if my ancestors didn’t come to this is country until the 1900s? If yes, then these aren’t really reparations in the sense the word was originally used. [/QUOTE] Yes. Because you’re American, too. Perhaps. [QUOTE=Canadjun] . . . The fact that many people don’t like blacks (both up here and down there) doesn’t mean that they would be ready to put their money where their mouth is. [/QUOTE] I think if it’s explained in a Fox News-like way, people will come around and believe it is the right course for the country. [QUOTE=Miller] If the American electorate “clearly” wants to get rid of black people, why do they keep electing a black guy president? [/QUOTE] I don’t know, as a running joke to show that a black president is ineffective? Obama can’t get anything done because the previous slave-holding states have sent a clown-car filled with anti-government ideologues to grind Congress to a halt. You have the Speaker of the House claiming that the House of Representatives needs to “cool it” on legislation this year. WTF? Wasn’t 2013 the least productive Congress since its Founding? The Constitution lays bare for all the purpose of the Legislative Branch: _it is to legislate_. Only when a black man comes into the White House does the majority of the electorate don the cloak of austerity and paucity. It is only when a black man walks in the White House does the majority of the electorate decide that _nothing_ Obama does will succeed. Even in 2014, the electorate will remain unchanged and vote for same anti-government ideologues to occupy Congress. I think instead of using blacks as proxies for whatever theoretical cultural war the South has with the North or vice versa, it would be better for the country for us - the blacks - to leave you all to your business. Once we leave, I am sure the electorate will find necessary strength to vote to finally fix their roads and realize the importance of education funding, unemployment insurance, and other necessary things that have been cut in order to ostensibly “punish” us. > [@](#): > > Racial affirmative actions does little to help most blacks and instead drives a wedge between working-class whites and blacks than the right-wing can exploit. It would be better for progressives to focus on improving the lot of all Americans through strengthening and expanding social programs. First, Affirmative Action does help blacks\*. Second, Affirmative Acton combined with the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act would’ve been an imperfect but suitable compromise to reparations. Thirdly, because the majority has reneged on Affirmative Action, reneged on the Voting Rights Act and is wavering on the Civil Rights Act, it has become clear that the majority does not embrace the values they purported to have in the 1960’s. Finally, expanding social programs is a non-starter because the majority has ostensibly labeled anything that helps or uplifts other poor Americans as “pork”. - Btw, stop asking blacks to cough up their race and, bam, you don’t have to worry about racial preferences. Get rid of the racial boxes: Problem solved. I think this is a very important point, it’s white people that’s asking, begging, and demanding black people reveal their race. _Not_ the other way around. > [@](#): > > Do you think the Nation of Islam should pay “reparations” to the family of Malcolm X for his killing and would you favor for pushing for an investigation by the Federal government into the question of Louis Farrakhan’s role in the murder of Malcolm X in front of his family? Yes. > [@](#): > > Did you also find it disgusting how many African-American supporters of Malcolm X showed up at Louis Farrakhan’s “Million Man March”, many of who were so stupid they wore X baseball caps while cheering for Louis Farrakhan as he gave his three-and-a-half hour speech on numerology? No. > [@](#): > > Also, since it was revealed in his most recent, Pulitzer Prize winning biography that Malcolm X was a closeted gay man do you think that information should be regularly taught about Malcolm X as a way to emphasize the commonality of the struggle for both black and gay equality? While I think the struggle for black and gay equality are similar, I don’t think they are comparable in scope nor in breadth. To mention the sexuality of the biographer smacks of smearing unless there is something substantive I am missing. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/58 "2014-02-25T00:55:13Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I think if it’s explained in a Fox News-like way, people will come around and believe it is the right course for the country. I think it’s the wrong course. I don’t want black people to leave! I don’t want families broken up because some are black and some are not. I think we have a long way to go, but we’ve made progress, and I think we can continue to make progress. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/59 "2014-02-25T01:04:44Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Sure there are. Census records with the designation of “Negro” or “Colored.” > > Again, one fatal flaw here is that white people can do genealogy research too, and those with slave ancestors will be looking for their cut. Who exactly are we paying reparations to? If we are paying reparations to the descendants of slaves, why does their skin color matter? ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/60 "2014-02-25T01:17:04Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Who exactly are we paying reparations to? If we are paying reparations to the descendants of slaves, why does their skin color matter? And if we are paying because society has been unfair to them…well (a) there are a lot of others who can also make that claim, starting with Native Americans and (b) I don’t think that, say, Oprah could claim society has treated me better than her. I am sure she has experienced discrimination in her life. But since she is a billionaire and I am not, I’d find the claim tbat I somehow owe her something for the advantages I supposedly have that she doesn’t, rather disingenuous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969.md?page=4)