# Reparations Revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969 "2014-02-22T20:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/101 "2014-03-07T17:37:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you really saying that all shootings of black people by white people are justified? Because that’s what it seems like you’re saying. I am not sure how you got that. “You won’t have to worry about getting shot as long as you don’t attack strangers” is rather different from “all shootings are justified”. Presumably **Honesty** was talking about the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman case. But Martin wasn’t shot because he went out to buy candy and was black. He was shot (so far as the evidence could establish) because he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose and bashed his head on the ground. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/102 "2014-03-07T17:50:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not sure how you got that. “You won’t have to worry about getting shot as long as you don’t attack strangers” is rather different from “all shootings are justified”. OK, so we agree that not all shootings are justified. So some worry about getting shot might be warranted, even if one is behaving himself/herself. Just like it is reasonable ([statistically](http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/dwb03.htm)) for a black person to be significantly more worried about being pulled over [while driving](http://courses2.cit.cornell.edu/sociallaw/student_projects/DrivingWhileBlack.htm) for no good reason. Or to be more worried about getting the death penalty, or more worried about getting a longer sentence for the same crime, or many other examples of systemic bias in the justice system. > [@](#): > > Presumably **Honesty** was talking about the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman case. But Martin wasn’t shot because he went out to buy candy and was black. He was shot (so far as the evidence could establish) because he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose and bashed his head on the ground. No, this is not correct. He was not convicted, but that does not mean that the jury bought the defense’s version of events. It just means that they were successful in raising a reasonable doubt. The jury may have even thought it was more likely than not that Zimmerman was guilty, but they had reasonable doubts, so they found him not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/103 "2014-03-07T17:59:33Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > To allow blacks the freedom to live out their short lives on this planet in peace and prosperity. Theoretically, we should be able to walk to the store and buy some candy without being questioned, accosted, and shot. So they are NOT reparations for slavery and thus owed to the descendants of slaves? They are reparations for present day injustices owed to any black American? Do I understand you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/104 "2014-03-07T18:00:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, this is not correct. He was not convicted, but that does not mean that the jury bought the defense’s version of events. It’s correct, because I am not talking about what the jury decided. I am talking about what actually happened, as far as the evidence could establish. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/105 "2014-03-07T18:46:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s correct, because I am not talking about what the jury decided. I am talking about what actually happened, as far as the evidence could establish. OK, then I think you’re incorrect that this is what was established by the evidence. I was not convinced by the defense’s story. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/106 "2014-03-07T18:57:49Z")
Back to the topic… **Honesty** , what do you actually know about the countries you would have African-Americans emigrate to? Besides the fact that those countries don’t have separate water fountains, don’t prevent people from voting because of their skin color, or don’t run around wearing the robes of the Grand Wizard. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/107 "2014-03-07T19:09:50Z")
I’m going to declare Trayvon Martin trial issues out of bounds here. Feel free to start another thread on the topic if you feel you must kick that around some more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/108 "2014-03-07T19:35:46Z")
I was going to start an ATMB thread accusing you of favoritism because the Zimmerman case has not received sufficient SDMB attention, but 15K+ posts on the subject made me think the better of it. 😃 I _would_ like to discuss why we white bigots would hate blacks so much that we would give them large sums of money. Or perhaps better how we can get some other race to hate me in the same way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/109 "2014-03-07T19:56:27Z")
Rounding black Americans up and sending them to Africa has always been a popular fantasy among racialists. So, I’m guessing, the Kongo is probably the place black Americans would be shipped to. Kongo is huge, poor, well watered, and in no position to resist. So, basically, the death of millions by Starvation in tropical squalor, followed by generations of Israeli vs Palestinian style enmity. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/110 "2014-03-07T20:01:06Z")
If you’re going to fight for your lives, or starve to desth, you might as well do it in your historical homeland. Which, for af ams, is the South. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/111 "2014-03-07T20:06:56Z")
Whoa, how do we Hispanics get on this gravy train? If you give us lots of money we can all immigrate back to Mexico (then cross the border again and go for seconds)! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/112 "2014-03-07T20:38:05Z")
Will no one think of us white, middle-aged, jewish-raised stockbrokers? I’m thinking a big check and deportation to either Manhattan or the north side suburbs of Chicago would do. Maybe Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/113 "2014-03-07T20:46:48Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Whoa, how do we Hispanics get on this gravy train? > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Will no one think of us white, middle-aged, jewish-raised stockbrokers? There’s an obvious solution; reparations for _everyone!_ I’m sure that everyone’s ancestors have been screwed over at some point in some way. ---
**Author:** ![repairminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/958977/32.png) [@repairminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/repairminded)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/114 "2014-03-07T21:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Overall, blacks have been quite patient in waiting for the United States to get its act together. Similarly, the United States has been quite patient in waiting for blacks to get their act together. > [@](#): > > The U.S failed to reintegrate blacks into society during Reconstruction and it failed to thwart state-legislated Jim Crow laws prior to the Civil Rights Movement. OK that’s over 50 years ago. > [@](#): > > Now, the U.S is reneging on the Civil Rights Movement by curtailing the Voting Rights Act, dismantling Affirmative Action programs, and cutting back on programs that help the poor. Time to get a job then. > [@](#): > > Moreover, the U.S are allowing states to exert their anti-minority policies without even a hint of challenge. If a person thinks they are a victim of discrimination there are plenty of laws on the books and they can go to court to enforce their legal rights. > [@](#): > > Then, when we _finally_ get an African-American president, these same slave-holding states send an unprecedented wave of anti-government representatives to make sure that the President does not succeed. Which “slave holding states” are you talking about? Slavery in the U.S. was abolished by the emancipation proclamation in 1865. > [@](#): > > The farce is over. It has become crystal clear that a wide portion of the electorate does not want blacks to succeed and that government intervention is again necessary to balance the scales. You’re talking about the same government that you just criticized for ignoring the rights of blacks? So, how would that work? > [@](#): > > I would like to revisit reparations as a means to free the United States of this problem once and for all. Do you actually have a specific reparations plan in mind? What is it? > [@](#): > > **Reparation (First Step)**: The U.S government shall pay moving and living expenses to all eligible blacks to voluntary migrate to any non-U.S region. The U.S government will pay the median income of their city of residence until death. What does this have to do with reparations? Reparations means compensation for past harms. You have to have a way to measure the past harms done and then assign a value to it. It might not be as much as you think. > [@](#): > > **Reparation (Second Step)**: The U.S government shall declare cities with large African-American populations to be Renaissance zones and offer non-interest bearing loans for promotion the arts and sciences as well as the building of schools, roads, and other pertinent infrastructure projects. Would the non-interest bearing loans be available to whites who happen to live in these cities too? Or is your discrimination reparations plan dependent upon discrimination? > [@](#): > > **Reparation (Third Step)**: Finish dismantling Affirmative Action and the Civil Rights Act. And, let’s not kid ourselves: this was the intention after MLK died anyway. It was MLK’s intention too. > [@](#): > > **Limitations** : Reparation Payments by the U.S government shall cease 400 years after adoption and annual payments shall not exceed 10% of U.S GDP. If the ceiling is reached, previous slave-holding states will forced to contribute the excess up to 25% U.S GDP. If annual Reparations Payments exceed this cap, Reparations Payments shall be temporarily reduced accordingly. You still haven’t related what you want to pay to a calculation of the damages. Where are you getting your numbers from. > [@](#): > > **Eligibility** : DNA test to determine a critical mass of African-American polymorphisms. This means that some “white” people would be eligible. This is a feature, not a bug. Benefits begin at 25 years of age, however, benefits can start as early as 19 if the individual has no surviving parent. Just because someone has some black ancestry doesn’t imply that they actually suffered any damages from slavery and thus there is no basis to grant them reparations. > [@](#): > > Since the electorate believes blacks are a burden to the U.S, reparations would allow blacks to migrate to a country that would appreciate them. I think only racists believe that blacks are a burden to the U.S. and since your reparations plan actually seems to be a roundabout way of deporting a lot of black people I suspect that might be your actual motivation in proposing this plan. > [@](#): > > By cutting the population of blacks in the country, the previous slave-holding states and their followers will no longer have to whine about Affirmative Action programs, how they want to take back their country, or how federal oversight of elections is an overstep of government. You can finally have a country without the blacks ruining it and we can finally be somewhere where we can live out our very short existence on this planet in peace and prosperity. > > - Honesty I don’t know if a reparations plan put forth by someone who expressly admits they believe the “blacks ruining” the country has much credibility. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/115 "2014-03-07T21:16:25Z")
> [@repairminded](#): > > Similarly, the United States has been quite patient in waiting for blacks to get their act together. Please expand on this extremely offensive statement. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/116 "2014-03-07T21:29:01Z")
> [@repairminded](#): > > Similarly, the United States has been quite patient in waiting for blacks to get their act together. > > OK that’s over 50 years ago. > > Time to get a job then. > > If a person thinks they are a victim of discrimination there are plenty of laws on the books and they can go to court to enforce their legal rights. > > Which “slave holding states” are you talking about? Slavery in the U.S. was abolished by the emancipation proclamation in 1865. > > You’re talking about the same government that you just criticized for ignoring the rights of blacks? So, how would that work? > > Do you actually have a specific reparations plan in mind? What is it? > > What does this have to do with reparations? Reparations means compensation for past harms. You have to have a way to measure the past harms done and then assign a value to it. It might not be as much as you think. > > Would the non-interest bearing loans be available to whites who happen to live in these cities too? Or is your discrimination reparations plan dependent upon discrimination? > > It was MLK’s intention too. > > You still haven’t related what you want to pay to a calculation of the damages. Where are you getting your numbers from. > > Just because someone has some black ancestry doesn’t imply that they actually suffered any damages from slavery and thus there is no basis to grant them reparations. > > I think only racists believe that blacks are a burden to the U.S. and since your reparations plan actually seems to be a roundabout way of deporting a lot of black people I suspect that might be your actual motivation in proposing this plan. > > I don’t know if a reparations plan put forth by someone who expressly admits they believe the “blacks ruining” the country has much credibility. I notice you’re extremely new. Generally speaking most of us find racist claptrap relying on hackneyed racial stereotypes unpersuasive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/117 "2014-03-07T22:26:06Z")
> [@repairminded](#): > > Similarly, the United States has been quite patient in waiting for blacks to get their act together. Racist twaddele. (And even if one wishes to pretend that blacks do not “have their act together,” mainstream America has never been patient on the topic. > [@repairminded](#): > > OK that’s over 50 years ago. Utterly wrong. The “I Have a Dream” speech at the march on Washington was just 50 years ago. It took a more to pass the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. It then took nearly a decade for the Federal government to come close to actually enforcing the Voting Rights Act. (At which point we saw events such as a “patient” white community voting to exhaust all of their city’s funds when blacks were elected to office so that the city would founder under black leadership.) Once the laws were passed, the country did not spin around and begin behaving in righteous manner and there are still cases of discrimination winding their way through the courts, today. Your “50 years” is a sad joke that is not even accurate in terms of it sparse “facts.” > [@repairminded](#): > > If a person thinks they are a victim of discrimination there are plenty of laws on the books and they can go to court to enforce their legal rights. While true in theory, the courts have been placing an increasing number of barriers before plaintiffs to prove their cases for over thirty years. There are a multitude of ways to engage in racist practices without being held accountable, (unless one is as stupid as a Texaco executive). > [@repairminded](#): > > Which “slave holding states” are you talking about? Slavery in the U.S. was abolished by the emancipation proclamation in 1865. :dubious: More ignorance. The 186 **3** Emancipation Proclamation freed only those slaves currently held in territories secured by the Confederacy. It was an important but largely symbolic act. Slavery was abolished by the Thirteenth Amendment in December, 1865. I do not believe that reparations are in any way workable, but I will not oppose them based on silly prejudices and ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/118 "2014-03-08T01:16:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll note once more that after being a huge proponent of Louis Farrakhan and claiming that Farrakhan is “a voice” that black people need Honesty has once again refused to explain whether or not he thought Farrakhan was being anti-Semitic when he referred to Jews as “bloodsuckers” who were “sucking the lifeblood from the black community” and claiming that “the Jews” “killed Jesus” and owned most of the slaves in the South. > > I wonder why. You’re more than welcome to do this Barack Obama-Jeremiah Wright dance where you conflate my praising Farrakhan with agreement with everything he does and says. You can keep on noting it all you want but I am not going to get into an argument or discussion about anti-Semitism, Jews, the Jewish people, Jewish diaspora, Israel or anything tangentially related to Israel like Middle East politics, Palestinians, Arafat’s death, hummus, or the desalination of ocean water. Though you’re free to keep mentioning them, I am _not_ interested in having that discussion and it has no bearing on the proposed reparation program. [QUOTE=Shodan] It doesn’t make a lot of sense to claim that we are doing all these direful things to re-enslave you, and then say we should spend a lot of money on you. [/QUOTE] I am not worried about being re-enslaved, I am worried about a resurgent, racist electorate that is hostile to minorities. Case in point: Just this week, the Legislative Branch of Arizona passed an anti-gay law wrapped ostensibly as “freedom of religion”. The States - especially the South and the West - cannot be trusted to provide its citizens equal treatment under the law. If memory serves, one of these previous slave-holding states just recently abolished its anti-miscegenation laws. I think the evidence speaks volumes. I think the War on Drugs, the cutting of programs that help the poor, dismantling of Affirmative Action programs, institution of voting ID laws, the refusal the fund infrastructure projects, cutting government employee rolls, and not extending unemployment insurance is steeped in the electorate’s hatred of black people. The latter is hilarious but shows that white people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face in order to ensure that a fictional Tamika Jones doesn’t get another check or food stamps. [QUOTE=repairminded] Similarly, the United States has been quite patient in waiting for blacks to get their act together. [/QUOTE] Whites in 1961: We shall overcome. Whites in 1964: Go forth! u r all equal :)!! Sorry, btw! Whites in 1969: OOPS! LOL! HE DIED: EQUALITY TIME IS OVER :(. Whites in 1976: AA IS QUOTA!!! Whites in 2014: WHY ARENT U EQUAL YET\>!\>!?!??!?! I NOT UNDERSTAND! [QUOTE=repairminded] Time to get a job then. [/QUOTE] Sure, that’s easy, let me wiggle my nose like that chick from _Bewitched_. [QUOTE=repairminded] What does this have to do with reparations? Reparations means compensation for past harms. You have to have a way to measure the past harms done and then assign a value to it. It might not be as much as you think. [/QUOTE] The mission of the Freedman’s Bureau - before it was dismantled - was to ensure that blacks could be integrated into society by giving them skills, food rations, providing funds to build schools and universities, and money. This program was inspired by that. 10% of GDP is nothing and is (slightly) less than tax receipts that the U.S brings in. If the U.S can afford trillions of dollars of unfunded tax cuts from the 1980’s to present, then the U.S can afford \<200 billion a year. [QUOTE=Shodan] The NHL would have to replace the NBA and NFL as the center of our sports universe, but we’d adjust. [/QUOTE] Good luck with that. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/119 "2014-03-08T01:50:29Z")
> [@repairminded](#): > > Would the non-interest bearing loans be available to whites who happen to live in these cities too? Or is your discrimination reparations plan dependent upon discrimination? Sure, I don’t see why not. I made a specific exception because Congress has convinced itself (and by extension, the electorate) that investing in roads, schools, arts and sciences is “pork” while tax breaks, tax cuts, and subsidies energizes the economy. I don’t get this line of thinking because it’s not only doesn’t make any sense but it is borderline seditious; it implies that $1 billion in loan guarantees to a bunch of white people in Ukraine is more important than providing those same opportunities and funding the white _and_ brown people who are suffering right at their doorstep. It makes me sick. > [@repairminded](#): > > It was MLK’s intention too. I don’t think he planned or foresaw these programs to be sunsetted less than a decade after his death. You have a cite on that? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > There’s an obvious solution; reparations for everyone! I’m sure that everyone’s ancestors have been screwed over at some point in some way. No. The Native Americans got theirs and we should get ours, too. The only difference between treatment was that one was terrorized by the U.S government while States looked on while the other was terrorized by the States while the U.S government looked on. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969/120 "2014-03-08T07:00:22Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Nah, I am not talking about specific people, I am talking about the government. Can this be any government and for grievances no matter how far back? Should the French get reparations from the government of Italy for Ceasar’s Gallic Wars? (or insert another ancient example). Is there a time limit? Must the government currently exist, or are successor governments liable? Is it required that the alleged wrongs continue until the present day? Must the wrongs be in the same form? What is the principle you are trying to establish here other than “I want money”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reparations-revisited/681969.md?page=7)