Gratuitous Rat Terrier pics
His tail was docked when I got him, but those ears are 100% natural.
Never claimed that. I said “Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” I did not claim that cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent. (and it won’t, nor will anything else, including especially those much touted “sonic pest repellents”). “Avoid” has a specific scientific usage here and the scientific papers I cited uses that meaning. It is also fairly close to one of the common usages.
“UC”? 
And “we”? Are you speaking for Blake also?
We were testing for many data points, so once the rats “avoided” the area, that was noted. We then tested for another data point, then another, and so forth. Female rat ready for breeding, female rat not ready, male rat, and so forth. The cat litter got one of the strongest reactions. Somewhere in a noted SoCal Institute of Higher Learning there is a Paper with my name on it…
I’ve been closing the big obvious holes in the basement. I also bought a 25 lbs roll of steel wool off eBay, to patch the smaller ones. I’m also planning to start keeping all the doors closed to further isolate them. Then I’m going to start with the rat zapper, and probably follow that shortly with poison (I figure I’ll get the dumb ones with the zapper first, so I have fewer rats rotting in the walls).
If that doesn’t work, I figure I’ll get either a terrier, a cat, or a black snake. On this point I’m undecided. A cat is what I’d like most, but I’m dubious about one’s ability to deal with the problem. I have reservations about the terrier due to time constraints. Tossing a black snake in the attic would probably be very effective, but one thing I do like about the rats is that at least I know when one’s right behind me.
<Big, fat hijack>
Is it just me, or wouldn’t it be great (if expensive) if these things were wi-fi equipped and would send you an e-mail or text message when they’re sprung? Building a better rat trap indeed. 
</BFH>
Read link. It’s from UC.
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Right. The only reason I brought up “cat urine” in that post was because I assumed that used kitty litter placed in a maze would smell like urine more than feces, since the feces would presumably have been scooped out, whereas the urine, having soaked into the kitty litter, would presumably have remained, and that thus the prevailing scent of the used kitty litter would have been of “urine” rather than “feces”. And that thus your test would actually have been testing cat urine as a rat deterrent. I think that’s a set of logical assumptions to have made. YMMV.
Now, it’s academic whether the smell of “cat” emanates from cat urine, or feces, or hair, or dander, or saliva on squeaky cat toys; that’s not the point here. The point is that we’re discussing your claim that all Sanders has to do to get rid of his rats is to obtain a cat and install it in his house, and that the rats will flee the mere smell of the cat living in the house. This claim does not seem to be supported by evidence.
Right. He asked you for a cite, and I too am skeptical of your claim, so he and I–we, as in “the two people in this thread who are skeptical of your claim”–are discussing it.
I went and read this whole paper.
You only quoted the first part of that paragraph. You snipped out an extremely significant part, one that would seem to cast doubt upon your position (bolding mine):
According to your own cite, rats exposed merely to “cat odor” either display no fear reaction at all, or display only a brief reaction of “fear”.
And later on, it says this:
So even if Sanders gets a cat, that’s not going to serve as a rat repellent, since in a whole house, the rats would simply learn to stay away from the odor source.
As I pointed out earlier. 
I went and read this one, too.
It says:
If shelter is available, i.e. if the rats have hidey holes in the house, the odor of cat elicits a less robust “fear” reaction.
And it says:
The purpose of this study was not to explore “cat odor” as potential rodent control. The purpose of this study was to establish that “cat odor” can be an effective, safe agent to use to elicit certain reactions in rats in order to study their behavior in a research laboratory. But just because cat odor may elicit a momentary “fear” reaction in rats does not mean that it’s effective as rodent control.
As I pointed out. If all you needed was “cat odor”, then Pest Management people all over the world, including but not limited to UC-Davis, would have known about it, and it would be on the Internet. “Have rats? Get a cat.”
And it’s not.
I went and read both these papers, too.
The Blanchard 2003 paper says:
And the Burwash/Tobin/Woolhouse/Sullivan paper tested with fecal and anal scent gland odors, and summed up:
So…According to your first link, if shelter is present, cat fur odor elicits only a short “fear” reaction, or no reaction at all.
According to your third link, the odor of cat fur works better at eliciting a “fear” reaction than the odor of cat feces.
According to your fourth link, rats will avoid the odor of predator feces.
So to sum up, if cat fur works better than feces, and cat fur works hardly at all, then feces must work only to the extent that any rat behavioral changes would be visible only to laboratory researchers intently scrutinizing their rats for behavioral changes.
And not to the extent of actually repelling rats from a dwelling.
I didn’t say that. You seem to have an issue with reading stuff into my posts that isn’t there. Here’s what I said “Call Vector Control, then a Pro…Then get a couple of cats.” That is to say after the Professionals have killed all his current crop of rats, then getting a couple of cats will help keep the problem from coming back. If I had said that getting a cat would cause “rats will flee the mere smell of the cat living in the house” then you would have an issue. But that’s what you said, not me. I said *“Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” * And I proved it with cites from reputable scientific papers.
Here’s part of what you quoted “Instead, rats display behaviors involved in risk assessment or approach-avoidance conflict…” Note the word “avoid”.
As I said “Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” I also said “I did not claim that cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent.”
Then that same paper went on to say "These milder forms of defensive behavior may be due to the intensity of the stimulus, in which cat odor is less intense than a whole cat… In other words, some cat smell ain’t gonna cut it. You may need the whole cat. Nor can rats “stay away from an odor source” that moves on little furry feet. 
Of course I didn’t quote the entire paper, we can’t do that. And I tried (fruitlessly ) to avoid a hijack.
And yes, if I claim that, you’d be correct. But I didn’t. I said “Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” I did not claim that cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent. (and it won’t, nor will anything else, including especially those much touted “sonic pest repellents”). “Avoid” has a specific scientific usage here and the scientific papers I cited uses that meaning. It is also fairly close to one of the common usages.
Each and every paper I cited stated that rats AVOID predator scent. They entirely agree with what I said, which is "Rats will avoid places that smell like cat."
I did not claim that cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent.
Every paper cited agreed that “During the exposure
day, rats avoided both the feces and the fur/skin odor
blocks compared to controls.” " rats will avoid the odor of predator feces" "rats display behaviors involved in risk assessment or approach-avoidance conflict, " and so forth. Each paper thus agrees totally with my statement "“Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.”
You seem bent on arguing with “cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent” which is a fact only you seem to argue with. No one has claimed this. In other words, you have set up a strawman “cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent” that no one has claimed and have now spent 6 posts of a spectactular hijack beating up on. Yes, the strawman is dead. You have won. You have completely and utterly disproved " cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent." It’s too bad no one was claiming that- in fact I specifically said I was *not *claiming that.
Erm…no, that’s not what I’m arguing with. I understand that no one has claimed this.
Right.
I. get. that.
Erm…no, you’re the one who is claiming that I have set up a strawman. When in fact I have done no such thing.
And…I’m not claiming that you said that. Please tell me the number of the post in which I said that I thought that YOU said that cat urine will act as a 100% effective rat repellent. Look, I already explained why I even brought up the word “urine” in the first place. If you choose to interpret the fact that I brought up the word “urine” in connnection with the words “kitty litter”, then YOU are the one who is reading things into posts; YOU are the one who is choosing to interpret that as an attempt on MY part to refute your (supposed) claim that cat urine will repel rats.
Okay? Can we get on the same page here? I agree that you never claimed that cat urine would repel rats, and you agree that I am not attempting to refute your non-existent claim that cat urine will repel rats. K?
And P.S. I don’t see why you keep saying it’s a hijack, when any discussion of cat odor repelling rats isn’t a “hijack” at all, because it involves the subject of the OP, which is repelling rats. It would only count as a “hijack” if we got onto, say, cockroach control, or whether the Neocons could be held responsible for the rats in Sanders’ house.
Okay, let’s discuss this.
What you said–the specific statement that Blake took issue with–was, “Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” Now, yes, it’s possible in laboratory experiments to show that rats will indeed avoid a spot in a maze that smells like cat.
However, what the rest of the papers show–the parts that you didn’t quote, and that I went and read–is that first, not all rats will avoid places that smell like cat. Some rats will ignore the smell of cat completely, some rats will be terrified and will avoid the spot, and some rats will be like “Meh, I need more information” and instead of avoiding the spot, will wait to see if a real cat (i.e. predator) seems to be imminent.
And second, in large areas (like mazes with long runways, or like a house), the rats will simply stay away from the spot that smells like predator.
Now.
What we’re talking about in this thread is not abstract laboratory experiments, but rather how Sanders can get rid of the rats in his house. Your cites from admittedly reputable scientific papers demonstrate only that SOME rats will avoid a spot in a maze that smells like cat.
But this is not Real World conditions; in Sanders’ house, all this means is that some rats will be intimidated by the smell of a cat, some rats will ignore it completely, and some rats will be like “Meh, I need more information” and will wait to see if an actual cat appears.
And if an actual cat does appear, all those rats have to do is go into another room. The cat is only one person–he can only be in one place at a time. If one of those “meh” rats detects the smell of cat, he’s just going to hunker down and wait to see if there’s really a cat in the room; he’s not going to flee the premises in terror and go back to the dairy farm across the road.
And of course the percentage of rats who literally couldn’t give a rat’s ass whether the house smells like cat or not are going to simply move in and set up housekeeping.
And the cat, like most cats, will have his favorite spots in the house, and will have rooms and areas where he generally doesn’t go. So the rats will learn right away where those areas are, and will exploit them.
So the point of this thread is not to debate whether rats will avoid the smell of a predator. The point is whether it’s possible for Sanders to use this in order to control the rats in his house.
And the answer is “No.”
And we don’t even need to sit here dueling with cites, because the plain fact is that out of hundreds of Google hits for various pest management control websites, not a single one says that in order to keep rats out of your house, all you have to do is get a cat. Not a single one says, “After you call in the exterminator, THEN get a cat and it will keep the rats from coming back.” That’s the sort of cite you need, DrDeth, to make your case that if Sanders gets a cat after the exterminator clears the existing rats out of his house, that his house will remain rat-free. Or that, as you put it, “getting a couple of cats will help keep the problem from coming back.” Cite for that statement, please.
Sanders, Cat is a grave responsibility; you should get Cat only because you want Cat, not because you think Cat will keep rats away.
Animal shelter, loaded with the scent of predators, infested with rats.
Rats happily coexisting with 13 predators.
So let me make this clear- are you claiming that a couple of good “ratter” cats will not help at all in controling a rat problen?
[sigh] :rolleyes:
No.
Your claim was not, “Get a couple of good ratter cats and that will control your rat problem.”
Your claim was, “Get a cat”–an ordinary cat, a shelter cat, not a “ratting” cat–“and its odor alone, in the house, will control your rat problem.”
We are discussing your claim that the mere odor of cat, obtained by Sanders going down to the animal shelter and getting himself a cat, will serve to control the rats in his house. This is what you said:
You did not say, “Get a couple of proven rat-killing cats.”
You said, “Get A cat.” A cat, period.
If you wish to claim that a couple of good, proven rat-killing cats would control Sanders rats, then I would have no problem with that, because it indisputably would help.
Or a proven rat-killing terrier. Or a proven rat-killing border collie, or german shepherd, or pet fox, or mongoose.
However, that was not your original statement.
Which is what we’re discussing here.
DDG I’ve been down this route before with Dr Deth, as have many others. You can bury him in references and he will twist and turn and move the goalposts to avoid admitting that the original statment was made with no evidence at all. Do a search for the threads where he claimed that predatory mammals don’t eat other predatory mammals, or where he claimed that humans have never exterminated animals through hunting without using firearms for classic examples of this.
My advice is that you give up at this stage. you’ve made your point to anyone who is interested in the atcual facts: Rats won’t avoid a house because it contains cats, simple matter of fact proven with references.
If you post a quote from “Science” using those excat words I still don’t believe it will convince Dr. Death.
Okay, I’ll bear your caveats in mind. But it’s kinda fascinating watching him move the goalposts, though…
Mostly I just wanna be sure Sanders doesn’t go down to the shelter and adopt a cat he may not really want, just because somebody here told him it would help him deal with his rat problem.
No, that is not what I claimed, and this is the 5th time I have repeated myself “Call Vector Control, then a Pro.
*Then *get a couple of cats. Large or fast breeds, like Maine Coon or Bengals. But rescues or shelter cats are fine, I am not saying go out and buy expensive pure breds, just look for those breeds. Get a pair of littermates if they have them. Rats will avoid places that smell like cat. Cats will kill mice and sometimes rats- and even large bugs.”
In other words; get a Pro in to eliminate the rats, then get a couple of good cats which will help keep the problem from re-occuring. I did not say a cat- or it’s odor would *control *the rat problem. The Professional exterminator will “control the rat problem”- the cats will just slow down any reinfestation.
I have provided cites from scientific papers, all of which agreed : “Rats will avoid places that smell like cat.” Each and every paper I provided used *that exact term *“avoid”. The only “moving of goalposts” is dudes that turn “avoid” into “100% rat proofness” in order to beat up on a strawman.
Since the OP has been rather well answered in General Questions, we’ll now adjourn to IMHO so that the lingering questions of he said/she said can be answered. Or not. Moved. (And, GD is right out. It ain’t that important)
samclem GQ moderator