# Replacing food stamps with real food for poor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742 "2009-08-17T16:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/81 "2009-08-18T16:43:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Except I’m no kind of liberal. > > And it’s nice that you’re going to give the poor better food than a prisoner in a Soviet Gulag. > > Thing is, unless our food program is handing out 50 pound sacks of wheat and nothing else, it’s going to cost more. Grocery stores are extremely competitive on price. You think your government bureaucrats can organize a grocery store cheaper than the businessmen who run grocery stores? > > If you’re sick and tired of helping the poor and want to stop, just say so. But if we’re going to be in the business of giving food to the poor (and regardless of what libertarians like me think, we are), the cheapest, simplest, most effective, and fairest way is to just give them a debit card to buy food from the grocery store. Just give them the money and let them agonize over whether granola bars are junk food or healthy food. It’s their life, they have more incentive than anyone to make good choices, and if they don’t they are the ones who suffer the most. As a libertarian, you sure aren’t looking at any long term implications of letting them do as they please because it’s cheaper RIGHT NOW. Who funds their visits to the ER after they all become diabetic? You do. Let them work for their food as a dwindling majority does. Whether it’s a volunteering gig for the government or other, they need to provide something. On hard times? I feel for you brother, let me help you by offering you some food for picking up trash along highways. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/82 "2009-08-18T16:44:07Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > There’s nothing humiliating or ‘grinding’ about it. Right. Sneering at people, calling them wards of the state, saying they are incapable of making choices, that’s all very very kind. I shall make a note. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/83 "2009-08-18T16:57:43Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > As a libertarian, you sure aren’t looking at any long term implications of letting them do as they please because it’s cheaper RIGHT NOW. > Who funds their visits to the ER after they all become diabetic? You do. > > Let them work for their food as a dwindling majority does. Whether it’s a volunteering gig for the government or other, they need to provide something. On hard times? I feel for you brother, let me help you by offering you some food for picking up trash along highways. Food stamps causes diabetes? :dubious::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/84 "2009-08-18T16:58:57Z")
Yeah, it’s funny how everyone wants to avoid big government handouts, so their plan is to create a giant government bureaucracy to make sure we’re giving out handouts the exact right way. In our society we have these tokens that people can exchange for goods and services. The development of these tokens was a major advance from barter economies, because if you wanted a chicken, and the chicken guy wanted clay pots, but you only had reed baskets, you’d have to find a guy who had pots before you could get your chicken, and what if the clay pot guy didn’t want baskets either? Giving someone money to purchase whatever food suits their particular needs is a lot cheaper and more efficient than forcing them to accept a particular ration of goods. Food is cheaper today than at any point in human history. If you don’t want to give away food, then fine, but stop pretending you’re doing it out of kindness. Yeah, you just want it to be degrading and barely better than starving to accept welfare, but you’re doing because you want people to better themselves. If you want to make people work for their food stamps, well, how much productivity is my 91 year old grandmother going to provide? She can barely walk 50 feet, how is she going to pick up garbage along the side of the highway? If you don’t want to provide food stamps for her, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/85 "2009-08-18T16:59:06Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > People can go buy a “list” for cash. I personally know someone who has done it in the past. I don’t understand. List of what? ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/86 "2009-08-18T17:03:18Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > The gov’t wouldn’t run grocery stores, it would contract with a food provider to create a foodstuff and then said food provider would distribute it with the gov’t paying for it. > > The foodstuffs could be simple things like brocolli, rice, beans, etc. > > As for the “it’s their life and their health”…many of the poor have proven they can’t make good choices. And the gov’t is paying for their healthcare too. > > As for the “it’s too complicated to block certain purchases”…it isn’t really. They can’t buy dogfood…why not expand that to all cola products. > > It should be tough to be poor. THey shouldn’t eat as well as people who are paying for their own food. > > They shouldn’t be able to have cable TV if they are on the dole. Use that money for food is they’re so poor. You’re expanding this discussion, it seems to me, into a rant against the poor. To stay on topic, I’ll just point out that it’s not a matter of just “blocking” it’s a matter of the fight over what will be blocked. You go convince the cola companies to not lobby against this idea. Gee…maybe it’s not the poor you should be railing against (part of the time). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/87 "2009-08-18T17:08:01Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > The gov’t wouldn’t run grocery stores, it would contract with a food provider to create a foodstuff and then said food provider would distribute it with the gov’t paying for it. > > The foodstuffs could be simple things like brocolli, rice, beans, etc. You actually believe that the gov’t would be able to accomplish this at a lower cost than WalMart (or any other major grocery) contracting directly with the suppliers? None of this stuff is a high margin product, it’s low margin commodity product, and sticking the government in the middle will do nothing but make it more expensive overall. I can see the bureaucrat trying to negotiate with a WalMart executive team over how much it will cost to carve out space in every WalMart for these foodstuffs, then trying to replicate this negotiation with the other 100 major grocery chains and thousands of independent stores. All I see is an incredibly costly morass, and lots of food stamp users finding shelves with nothing on them, or crap that nobody wants to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/88 "2009-08-18T17:19:34Z")
> [@drhess](#): > > I don’t understand. List of what? I don’t get it either…😕 ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/89 "2009-08-18T17:23:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You actually believe that the gov’t would be able to accomplish this at a lower cost than WalMart (or any other major grocery) contracting directly with the suppliers? None of this stuff is a high margin product, it’s low margin commodity product, and sticking the government in the middle will do nothing but make it more expensive overall. I can see the bureaucrat trying to negotiate with a WalMart executive team over how much it will cost to carve out space in every WalMart for these foodstuffs, then trying to replicate this negotiation with the other 100 major grocery chains and thousands of independent stores. > > All I see is an incredibly costly morass, and lots of food stamp users finding shelves with nothing on them, or crap that nobody wants to eat. Whatever is cheapest. The gov’t could have a list of foods or they could also tell Nestle or whomever to make some kind of nutritious protein mush by the ton and distribute it to Wal-Marts etc which would earn a small markup. The point is to make the poor uncomfortable in the dependence, while also feeding them very well and preventing health problems. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/90 "2009-08-18T17:29:16Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Whatever is cheapest. > > The point is to make the poor uncomfortable in the dependence Seriously, can we keep the current Food Stamp program, and just let the cashiers spit in their faces? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/91 "2009-08-18T17:31:57Z")
> [@drhess](#): > > I don’t understand. List of what? Groceries dear. As to the diabetes. The type 2 so prevalent in today’s society from not eating the proper nutritional food values. Do food stamps cause it? Of course not, but it sure isn’t helping by NOT limiting what you can buy with them either. You think someone who is a lifelong welfare abuser is going to make the right choice of food for themselves or their kids? I won’t hold my breath. Put them to work. WIC- Good Idea Welfare- BAD Idea (as currently run) ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/92 "2009-08-18T17:52:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Seriously, can we keep the current Food Stamp program, and just let the cashiers spit in their faces? Good one, ha ha. But cashiers might not do it, so it isn’t a good enough deterrant. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/93 "2009-08-18T17:53:30Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Groceries dear. What **Kearsen** is saying is that it’s trivial for an unscrupulous person to convert EBT credits to cash by buying groceries for a friend and having the friend repay you with cash, presumably at some discount to make the deal work. Then, the EBT card holder has some cash to spend on booze or cigarettes, and the friend has groceries bought at a discount. Please correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/94 "2009-08-18T18:13:36Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > What **Kearsen** is saying is that it’s trivial for an unscrupulous person to convert EBT credits to cash by buying groceries for a friend and having the friend repay you with cash, presumably at some discount to make the deal work. Then, the EBT card holder has some cash to spend on booze or cigarettes, and the friend has groceries bought at a discount. > > Please correct me if I’m wrong. Oh, IC. Well, then it’s just more argument for just giving people cash. Anyway the benefits are so low that its fungible anyway. It’s only the odd case that wouldn’t want it for themselves in a given month. Anyway, if people have friends doing this, it’s against the law. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/95 "2009-08-18T18:15:28Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Whatever is cheapest. > > The gov’t could have a list of foods or they could also tell Nestle or whomever to make some kind of nutritious protein mush by the ton and distribute it to Wal-Marts etc which would earn a small markup. > > The point is to make the poor uncomfortable in the dependence, while also feeding them very well and preventing health problems. Asking a question and having well reasoned discussion about it or having experts answer your questions, is apparently not why you are here. I mean why ask a question when you’ve already made up your mind? This is not the place of that. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/96 "2009-08-18T18:37:52Z")
> [@drhess](#): > > To stay on topic, I’ll just point out that it’s not a matter of just “blocking” it’s a matter of the fight over what will be blocked. You go convince the cola companies to not lobby against this idea. Gee…maybe it’s not the poor you should be railing against (part of the time). 😃 This is probbaly dead right. So, a big question is balancing the cost of fighting the big soda companies’ lobbying power vs. the health costs to society of soda-related diabetes and obesity. Are there studies available that prove a direct link between excessive consumption of sugary soda and these two expensive, lethal health problems? ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/97 "2009-08-18T18:49:47Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > This is probbaly dead right. > > So, a big question is balancing the cost of fighting the big soda companies’ lobbying power vs. the health costs to society of soda-related diabetes and obesity. > > Are there studies available that prove a direct link between excessive consumption of sugary soda and these two expensive, lethal health problems? Obesity research is a big area and getting these foods out of schools is a big issue. However, I just don’t know about the connection of the food to diabetes. Part of the problem is with the question: what about access to soda is connected to obesity or a certain disease? People don’t need to stop drinking it, but drink proper amounts of it, etc. In any case, it’s hard to believe that the limited time people are on food stamps and the limited value of them leads to enough junk food purchases to destroy health. If so, nutrition education is the issue, not complex regulatory schemes. (I know the connection to food stamps wasn’t your point but the point of others.) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/98 "2009-08-18T18:57:03Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > It should be tough to be poor. THey shouldn’t eat as well as people who are paying for their own food. > > They shouldn’t be able to have cable TV if they are on the dole. Use that money for food is they’re so poor. And they shouldn’t be able to wear nice clothes, either. Just give them some burlap to cover up with so we don’t have to see their bodies. And they shouldn’t get carpeting in those projects; cement floors are good enough. And heat? Just enough to keep them from freezing. They can wrap themselves with more burlap if they’re cold. In all seriousness: it’s already though to be poor. As a society, we probably shouldn’t devote a lot of resources to making it _tougher_. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/99 "2009-08-18T19:17:59Z")
Here’s the actual list of permissible foods under the SNAP (AKA Food Stamp) program: [http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/retailers/eligible.htm](http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/retailers/eligible.htm) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742/100 "2009-08-18T20:12:08Z")
I think they should allow vitamins - especially for children. that really surprised me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-food-stamps-with-real-food-for-poor/506742.md?page=6)