# Replacing heavy machinery with robots **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199 "2014-05-11T17:15:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/21 "2014-05-29T12:30:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I _did_ point out that solar either already is or soon will be cheaper than grid. [Solar power is not cheaper than grid,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source) nor is there any expectation that it will be in the near term. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/22 "2014-05-29T13:36:30Z")
A robot big enough to do the job of a piece of heavy equipment (like a dozer) would be a piece of heavy equipment itself. And at current tech, could not do the job nearly as well (if at all). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/23 "2014-05-29T13:45:33Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > And another thought. > > The reason a lot of mining equipment is already electric is that it is used in one place and it is easy to get the electrical power to the equipment. Not to mention you don’t want your equipment kicking out a lot of exhaust in your mine. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/24 "2014-05-29T13:59:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I _did_ point out that solar either already is or soon will be cheaper than grid. That’s not command and control, it is competition. The smart money is on capitalizing on the cheapest energy (without polluting ourselves to death- you must admit there is value in that). If and when renewables get cheaper they will be used and no one will have to advocate for them. In the meantime Germany has had the most expensive electricity in Europe, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars.How much has global warming been delayed by this sacrifice? From what I can tell, not at all. It looks like they have wasted all this money for no benefit. Other countries have cheap electricity now, and when and if renewables get cheaper they can swithc and have cheap electricity then. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/25 "2014-05-29T14:11:52Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I believe that a lot of the large mining earth moving equipment is already electric. If your in the market to purchase one to play around with check here: > > [https://mining.cat.com/products/surface-mining/electric-rope-shovels](https://mining.cat.com/products/surface-mining/electric-rope-shovels) That is awesome! Here is an example of a solar power company teaming up with mining giant Rio Tinto in Australia to provide power for a bauxite mine. Apparently they generate a lot of their electricity with diesel generators. The plan is to displace some of that with solar power generation. No robots AFAICT, but the point is to take the carbon emissions out of heavy industry. > [@Shodan](#): > > [Solar power is not cheaper than grid,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source) nor is there any expectation that it will be in the near term. > > Regards, > Shodan Check out this article titled, [Xcel Energy Says Wind and Solar is Cheaper Than Natural Gas](http://grandvalleysolarcenter.blogspot.com/2013/09/xcel-energy-says-wind-and-solar-is.html) > [@](#): > > Xcel Energy, one of the country’s biggest utilities, has just announced a planned major expansion of its solar and wind investments – because they are “cheaper and more reliable” than natural gas. In a filing to the public utilities commission in the state of Colorado, Xcel Energy requested permission to include 170MW of new, utility-scale solar capacity and 450MW of wind energy capacity in the state. The reason, Xcel Energy said, was not to meet renewable energy targets (which in Colorado happen to be 30 per cent by 2020), but because these technologies were best placed to fill basic generation needs. Solar and wind, it said, were competitive with the cost of gas-fired generation. “Based on generation needs, the most reliable and most cost-effective resources happen to be solar and wind,” Xcel Energy spokeswoman Michelle Aguayo told the online publication SRN. “We are not taking on solar because we have to, but because it is cost-effective and economical.” As for the future, [here](https://www.q-cells.com/uploads/tx_abdownloads/files/11_GLOBAL_OVERVIEW_ON_GRID-PARITY_Paper_02.pdf) is an in-depth study on projections for grid-parity worldwide. For the quick take-away, scroll to the charts on page 7. Nearly every country in the world (including Russia and Canada) are projected to be past solar grid parity by 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/26 "2014-05-29T14:23:11Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If and when renewables get cheaper they will be used and no one will have to advocate for them. In the meantime Germany has had the most expensive electricity in Europe, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars.How much has global warming been delayed by this sacrifice? From what I can tell, not at all. It looks like they have wasted all this money for no benefit. > Other countries have cheap electricity now, and when and if renewables get cheaper they can swithc and have cheap electricity then. People will still have to advocate for them because fossil fuel interests will continue to attempt to twist the government into anti-competitive regulations against renewables, see [here](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-solar-kochs-20140420-story.html#page=1). As for Germany, considering they generate up to 60% of their power via renewables, obviously they have displaced a lot of carbon emissions. If every country followed suit, we would all have less to worry about. And while Germany’s electricity may be more expensive today, their leadership on this front is a big part of why renewables have come down in price so quickly for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/27 "2014-05-29T15:03:47Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Check out this article titled, [Xcel Energy Says Wind and Solar is Cheaper Than Natural Gas](http://grandvalleysolarcenter.blogspot.com/2013/09/xcel-energy-says-wind-and-solar-is.html) Germany thought the same thing. And the publicist for Xcel is lying. They are doing this because they are required by law to do it. They are putting a brave face on the fact that their non-solar-using consumers will have to subsidize their solar-using consumers. As is happening [now](http://coloradopeakpolitics.com/2013/09/13/shortchanged-xcel-customers-subsidize-solar-panel-owners/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/28 "2014-05-29T15:07:22Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > As for Germany, considering they generate up to 60% of their power via renewables, obviously they have displaced a lot of carbon emissions. No, they haven’t. **Omar Little** has already shown that to you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/29 "2014-05-30T04:26:24Z")
But German CO2 emissions have tended to drop, see [here](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/co2-emissions-kt-wb-data.html). It is only after the recent shutdown of the nuclear plants that there has been a small bump upwards. The up to 60% of grid power they’re generating via renewables aren’t being generated via fossil fuel, therefore they are reducing their carbon footprint by that much and still increasing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/30 "2014-05-30T04:39:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Germany thought the same thing. > > And the publicist for Xcel is lying. They are doing this because they are required by law to do it. They are putting a brave face on the fact that their non-solar-using consumers will have to subsidize their solar-using consumers. As is happening [now](http://coloradopeakpolitics.com/2013/09/13/shortchanged-xcel-customers-subsidize-solar-panel-owners/). > > Regards, > Shodan That is just swallowing the spin from other companies that do not want to see the development of solar a viable alternative. Even conservative groups and sources are beginning to notice how short-sighted is to side with the big energy companies that do not want to see competition. [http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/11/04/solar-industry-takes-on-crony-capitalism-in-arizona-n1735569/page/full](http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/11/04/solar-industry-takes-on-crony-capitalism-in-arizona-n1735569/page/full) > [@](#): > > The spin goes like this, “stop subsidizing the solar industry.” The word “subsidy” is used to scare Republicans. The solar companies are being compared to Solyndra, the green energy company that went bankrupt despite receiving more than $500 million in loans from the Department of Energy. > > The reality is, the solar industry is not being “subsidized.” Energy users who do not use APS power, but use their solar panels instead for power, are simply not being double-charged. When they are not using APS power, but are instead sending unused solar power energy back to the grid for others to use, they receive a rebate. This is known as “net metering” and has been in place since 2009. APS wants to eliminate this, which will essentially have the effect of charging solar users for APS power they do not use. Instead of receiving 15 cents per kilowatt-hour rebates for power the solar users send back to the grid, APS wants to reduce the rebate to 4 to 10 cents. This would add $50 to $100 a month to the power bills of solar users. The utility also wants to start charging solar users a monthly maintenance fee. > > Solar users are saving everyone additional costs. As energy users dependent upon APS decrease their usage and move to solar power, fewer generating stations need to be built, and fewer distribution lines put into place. While it is true that solar users are paying less towards the maintenance costs of APS, it is because they are using less of APS’ services. > [@](#): > > This feud has come to a head this year because APS is discovering its profits are decreasing as more and more people in Arizona move to solar power. This is happening in part because the cost of installing solar panels has decreased drastically in recent years. About 200 APS customerseach month are adding solar to their houses now. > > APS has been secretly contributing large amounts of money to conservative organizations like 60 Plus Association, the conservative alternative to the AARP, and the conservative organization Prosper, in order to influence the groups to run negative ads against solar power. When a reporter asked APS spokesman Jim McDonald in July whether APS was funding the 60 Plus costly TV ads, he denied it, saying, “No, we are not.” Instead, APS claimed it was a coincidence that the two organizations were aligned with it. McDonald has a history of advocating for tax increases. > > In October, it was discovered that APS had been lying all along about funding conservative organizations to run attack ads. These groups bashed the solar net-metering policy as “corporate welfare.” It is ironic, because corporate welfare is actually what APS is demanding for itself. > > Perhaps the term “net metering” needs to be changed to something more accurate, so consumers aren’t as easily fooled into believing it is a subsidy to solar companies. Call it what it is, non-double charging or rebates for contributing power. > > Some conservatives have been fooled, lining up behind crony capitalism. Others see through the false rhetoric. Barry Goldwater, Jr., has come out against APS’ near monopoly. A Green Tea Party Coalition has been formed in Georgia by Debbie Dooley, national coordinator for the Tea Party Patriots and co-founder of the Atlanta Tea Party. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/31 "2014-05-30T15:24:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > People will still have to advocate for them because fossil fuel interests will continue to attempt to twist the government into anti-competitive regulations against renewables, see [here](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-solar-kochs-20140420-story.html#page=1). > > As for Germany, considering they generate up to 60% of their power via renewables, obviously they have displaced a lot of carbon emissions. If every country followed suit, we would all have less to worry about. And while Germany’s electricity may be more expensive today, their leadership on this front is a big part of why renewables have come down in price so quickly for the rest of us. Germany has spent 136 billion dollars on increased electricity costs and any benefits to global warming are entirely based if every other country followed suit. Every other country has not followed suit so there has been no benefit. For the same money they could have bought everyone in the country three of the latest iPads. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/32 "2014-05-30T15:41:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The reality is, the solar industry is not being “subsidized.” Unfortunately, this is an outright lie. [Cite.](http://www.dasolar.com/energytaxcredit-rebates-grants/colorado) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/33 "2014-05-31T01:03:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, this is an outright lie. [Cite.](http://www.dasolar.com/energytaxcredit-rebates-grants/colorado) > > Regards, > Shodan Quote symbols seem to not exist it seems, they are clearly referring to the idea that beside that subsidy that we already know it exist the ones opposing the solar panels are claiming that there is also an extra “subsidy” that is the solar panels users have vs the ones that do not use it. That is the lie and lets not forget that many conservatives are not seeing those original subsidies as a “sin” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/34 "2014-05-31T14:16:08Z")
So, apart from being subsidized, they aren’t being subsidized. Ooooookay… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/35 "2014-05-31T14:24:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, apart from being subsidized, they aren’t being subsidized. Ooooookay… > > Regards, > Shodan Obtuseness regarding the point noticed, once again that is acknowledged, the point is that even conservatives are realizing the argument, that on top of regular subsidies the non users are subsiding the users once they are making energy, is the nonsensical one. As it is the big lie from the article you cited that users of solar panels are not seeing an economical benefit. As the users that are also conservative are realizing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/36 "2014-05-31T14:55:23Z")
Your posts are not very clear, but if you are claiming that it is a lie to say that solar panel users are receiving further subsidies, you are mistaken, as mentioned in an earlier cite - > [@](#): > > According to Xcel, the electricity the utility’s grid gets from rooftop solar power systems is worth about 4.6 cents per kilowatt hour. That’s the value of the power plants that Xcel doesn’t have to build and operate, and the fuel it doesn’t have to buy to generate electricity, due to the solar power coming in from the rooftop systems, according to Xcel. > > But the utility is required to credit the owners of the rooftop systems 10.5 cents per kilowatt hour — that’s the retail rate that Xcel’s residential customers pay for power. > > And it leaves a 5.9-cent per kilowatt hour gap between what the utility thinks the power is worth, and what the utility gives credit for, a gap that Xcel says might be an unfair subsidy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/37 "2014-05-31T15:03:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your posts are not very clear, but if you are claiming that it is a lie to say that solar panel users are receiving further subsidies, you are mistaken, as mentioned in an earlier cite - > > Regards, > Shodan Avoidance of what was posted noticed: > [@](#): > > The reality is, the solar industry is not being “subsidized.” Energy users who do not use APS power, but use their solar panels instead for power, are simply not being double-charged. When they are not using APS power, but are instead sending unused solar power energy back to the grid for others to use, they receive a rebate. This is known as “net metering” and has been in place since 2009. APS wants to eliminate this, which will essentially have the effect of charging solar users for APS power they do not use. Instead of receiving 15 cents per kilowatt-hour rebates for power the solar users send back to the grid, APS wants to reduce the rebate to 4 to 10 cents. This would add $50 to $100 a month to the power bills of solar users. The utility also wants to start charging solar users a monthly maintenance fee. The point is that what utilities claim is not supposed to be taken as gospel. And once again you are ignoring that what I cited was conservative site, the point stands, even conservative users are not swallowing what the de-facto local monopolies on power are demanding. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199/38 "2014-05-31T17:12:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, this is an outright lie. [Cite.](http://www.dasolar.com/energytaxcredit-rebates-grants/colorado) > > Regards, > Shodan Allright, we have changed the subject here a little bit. I quoted Xcel touting the competitiveness of solar vs. natural gas. They are talking about utility scale generation. [Here](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/xcel-energy-and-sunpower-to-build-50-megawatt-solar-power-plant-in-colorado-2014-05-27) is the follow-up on that story: > [@](#): > > Xcel Energy and SunPower Corp. have signed a power purchase agreement to build a 50-megawatt solar photovoltaic (PV) power plant in Colorado’s San Luis Valley. Xcel Energy estimates that the plant will generate enough electricity to serve the needs of approximately 13,500 average Colorado homes. > > “This expansion of our renewable portfolio in Colorado is yet another example of how Xcel Energy brings solar power to its customers in the right way,” said David Eves, president and CEO of Public Service Co. of Colorado, an Xcel Energy company. "We are adding large scale solar that competes with and surpasses other forms of generation alternatives, in terms of price, over the life of the project. There is no feed-in tariff with utility-scale solar. Xcel buys the power from SunPower, then turns around and sells it to their customers at a profit. They say this is cheaper than building a new gas plant. If you want to say they’re just lying, well I dunno, if they are I guess that will be exposed over time. Point is, your cites are in reference to residential solar, whose subsidies don’t apply to utility scale projects. Residential solar does get incentivized. Public utilities get the privilege of operating as a monopoly because of the nature of their business. As such, they are regulated, and this is no surprise, it has been the case for decades. Crying about public utilities being forced to accomodate residential solar is a little dishonest- they are regulated public utilities, renewable power is in the public interest, they’ll do what they’re told. I’m sorry that political activist fossil fuel interests don’t like it, but they don’t get to decide who the winners and losers are here. The winner has to be the public, even if that is at the expense of the fossil fuel industry. And anyway, residential solar will soon reach grid parity as well- the numbers in your cite are in fact already dated. There have been comparisons to Germany’s buildout of renewable power, so it might be worth pointing out that (I think) this project is going to end up as part of a [yieldco](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_co). AFAIK this was never an option under the German system- basically renewable energy projects get bundled together into something like a dividend-paying bond. Investors buy shares in the yieldco and they get a return on their investment as the projects generate revenue. You must admit, this takes the “socialism” out of the whole enterprise. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Germany has spent 136 billion dollars on increased electricity costs and any benefits to global warming are entirely based if every other country followed suit. Every other country has not followed suit so there has been no benefit. For the same money they could have bought everyone in the country three of the latest iPads. I don’t know how you can say there has been ‘no benefit’. From the article I cited above: > [@](#): > > the completed plant will offset the annual production of almost 127,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions, which is the equivalent of removing approximately 483,000 cars from Colorado’s roads over the next 20 years. Germany is getting this effect for up to 60% of their power generation (minus nuclear). And other countries are following suit- wind and solar are the fastest-growing power sources in the world right now. Over the next 30 years, as 75%-90% of demand for fossil fuels is destroyed worldwide, we’ll see ever-larger reductions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/replacing-heavy-machinery-with-robots/688199.md?page=1)