# Reply to Babale re: Hamas and Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 12, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469 "2023-10-12T17:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/21 "2023-10-12T19:43:35Z")
While I would not disagree that Hamas have committed the more heinous war crimes, I think it naive and incorrect to believe that the Israeli military are blameless. This is aside from all the anti-peace activity undertaken, such as building of Israeli settlements in occupied territories in violation of international law. I would suggest reading this article. There is too much to quote, but there are credible claims against the Israeli military of many things, including collective punishment, disproportionate use of force, IDF use of human shields, and misconduct by IDF soldiers. > **[Allegations of war crimes against Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_Israel)** > > 2023 Israel–Hamas war > Over the course of several decades, the Israel Defense Forces, the military branch of the state of Israel, has been subject to various allegations of war crimes. The government of Israel has denied any wrongdoing, and neither Israel nor the IDF have ever been subject to formal investigations into committing war crimes. Allegations against Israel have been levied by human rights experts, including Special rapporteurs from the United Nations, as well as organizations such a... ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/22 "2023-10-12T19:46:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > killed orders of magnitude more civilians before the war was over. Not to hijack, but even counting only the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust, who represent only a fraction of the total number of civilians murdered by Nazis and Imperial Japanese, the US would have had to have killed 600 million civilians for that to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/23 "2023-10-12T19:49:32Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I would suggest reading this article. There is too much to quote, but there are credible claims against the Israeli military of many things, including collective punishment, disproportionate use of force, IDF use of human shields, and misconduct by IDF soldiers. This is probably a good discussion that could have been held last month. And it may even be a discussion for a couple of months from now. But to introduce this _at the present moment_ is very tone deaf. Read the room. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/24 "2023-10-12T19:51:59Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I think it naive and incorrect to believe that the Israeli military are blameless. Yes, I agree, I’m certain babale agrees, and I haven’t seen anyone on this board claim that the IDF is “blameless”. There are many credible allegations of war crimes against the IDF. What puzzles me is that you act as though you think this is likely to be new information for anyone here. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/25 "2023-10-12T19:52:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > I would suggest reading this article. There is too much to quote, but there are credible claims against the Israeli military of many things, including collective punishment, disproportionate use of force, IDF use of human shields, and misconduct by IDF soldiers. > > This is probably a good discussion that could have been held last month. And it may even be a discussion for a couple of months from now. > > But to introduce this _at the present moment_ is very tone deaf. Read the room. You think it best to ignore this now, while Israel bombs Gaza to the Stone Age and is about to launch its biggest ever military operation there? > **[Turkey’s Erdogan calls Israeli siege and bombing of Gaza a ‘massacre’](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israeli-siege-and-bombing-of-gaza-a-massacre)** > > Turkish leader says Israel’s blockade and relentless assaults on Gaza are a disproportionate response to Hamas attack. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/26 "2023-10-12T19:53:05Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Yes, I agree, I’m certain babale agrees, and I haven’t seen anyone on this board claim that the IDF is “blameless”. This. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/27 "2023-10-12T19:55:41Z")
The Israeli military is about to launch a major ground offensive into a heavily populated area, and you think this _isn’t_ an appropriate time to express concern about the well-being of the civilians in that area? When may we begin doing so, _after_ the war? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/28 "2023-10-12T19:57:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > You think it best to ignore this now, while Israel bombs Gaza to the Stone Age I think it’s best to not engage in the topic in an emotional way, using highly charged words. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/29 "2023-10-12T19:58:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think it’s best to not engage in the topic in an emotional way, using highly charged words. Like “sickening” and “disgusting”? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/30 "2023-10-12T19:59:24Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > his _isn’t_ an appropriate time to express concern about the well-being of the civilians in that area? Hmmmm I don’t think I said that. I apologize if I was not clear. I think now is not the time to defend Hamas by pointing out past injustices. Even if true. Especially using highly charged language and emotions. Now is the time to point out concern for the well being of all civilians in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/31 "2023-10-12T19:59:44Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Like “sickening” and “disgusting”? Yes, highly charged words on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/32 "2023-10-12T20:00:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think now is not the time to defend Hamas by pointing out past injustices. Even if true. Especially using highly charged language and emotions. Now is the time to point out concern for the well being of all civilians in the area. I agree. It’s critical that we be able to say, “Hold on, a siege is not the right answer right now.” It’s much less critical that we say, “Israel treated Palestinians terribly for decades, and these massacres were predictable” or whatever. There’s time for that conversation. I don’t know that the time for the second conversation is now. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/33 "2023-10-12T20:02:03Z")
Of course I meant in combat against each other. Imperial Japan also killed many civilians in China and elsewhere. But when America went to war with them, the disparity in casualties was very high, and Japanese civilian casualties were massive. Japan was still in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/34 "2023-10-12T20:03:35Z")
Speaking of tone-deafness…really, you couldn’t have linked to an article quoting, say, UN or Red Cross/Crescent spokespeople calling for an end to the blockade, rather than to an anti-Semitic fascist doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/35 "2023-10-12T20:07:02Z")
Sure, here you go: > [@](#): > > UN condemns complete siege of Gaza > > The United Nations secretary-general says he is ‘deeply distressed’ by Israel’s complete siege of the Gaza Strip, which will worsen an already dire situation. He also says this latest fighting did not arise from a vacuum, but from a decades-long occupation with no end in sight. > **[UN condemns complete siege of Gaza](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/10/un-condemns-complete-siege-of-gaza-2)** > > The UN secretary-general says he is ‘deeply distressed’ by Israel’s complete siege of the Gaza Strip. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/36 "2023-10-12T20:07:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think now is not the time to defend Hamas by pointing out past injustices But nobody here is even coming remotely close to doing that. Unless you think that any mention of historical context at all equates to “defending Hamas”, which would be a dumb position. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/37 "2023-10-12T20:44:26Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Yes, I agree, I’m certain babale agrees, and I haven’t seen anyone on this board claim that the IDF is “blameless”. OK, it appears that someone is in fact making that argument in the other thread. Anyone surprised to hear it’s DrDeth? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/38 "2023-10-13T14:00:46Z")
Since Hamas _craves_ mass deaths of Gaza civilians in order to further its objectives and change the dynamic in the region, it’s bizarre that Israel even considers actions likely to bring that about. Why give Hamas what they want? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/39 "2023-10-13T14:07:57Z")
Because Hamas is [Jigsaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_(Saw_character)). ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/40 "2023-10-13T17:36:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I described what Hamas did as “heinous acts of evil” Yes, you said that, but I certainly had the impression that you were trying to paint both sides as equivalent. If that’s not what you were going for, then maybe rethink your postings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=3)