# Reply to Babale re: Hamas and Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 12, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469 "2023-10-12T17:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/41 "2023-10-13T21:19:59Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Yes, you said that, but I certainly had the impression that you were trying to paint both sides as equivalent. In that case, you’re a fool. I’m sorry that there are some morons here that assumed I was supporting the murder of civilians. They were clearly thinking that _I_ supported the murder of civilians because they described my posts as “sickening” and “disgusting”. I’m not going to say this again, because I feel I’ve already stated it enough times: I do not support the murder of civilians. I would imagine, though, that from Hamas’ perspective, there were undoubtedly scores to settle, given that, since the beginning of 2008 and up to the end of August this year, Israel has killed 3,803 Palestinian civilians, with another 1,582 killed that were possibly civilians (so not counting the 1,022 “armed group” individuals killed), while Palestinians have killed only 177 Israeli civilians (and 131 Israeli soldiers). In my opinion, only the most blinkered and partisan person, completely without understanding of human psychology, would not understand the desire among many Palestinians for revenge and retribution. That is their own family members, women (at least 429) and children (at least 1,090) being killed. The exact same desire for revenge and retribution is currently being played out in many minds right now on the other side of the conflict, both in Israel and beyond. Revenge/retribution is one of the key drivers of long-standing intercommunal violence. If you can’t understand that, or just dismiss it, then you are part of the problem and are just prolonging the cycle of violence for future generations. The blood of future generations is on your hands. Those Israeli supporters with ultra-partisan mindsets absolve the Israeli military of all responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians and place the blame squarely on Hamas for all the deaths of their own people. There is some truth in this, but it is not the whole truth, as there are many reports of the Israeli military using heavy-handed tactics, or worse, as detailed in the Wikipedia article I posted previously. We can see that right now with what is going on in Gaza, with Israel’s bombing - which has already killed more Palestinian civilians than the number of Israeli civilians killed in the terror attacks, and things have only just begun - the denial of food, water, electricity and supplies to over 2 million Gazan civilians, and the displacement of over a million people from their homes. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/42 "2023-10-13T23:04:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think now is not the time to defend Hamas by pointing out past injustices. …it isn’t “defending Hamas” to point out past injustices. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Even if true. _Especially_ if true. You aren’t disputing any of the numbers here, are you? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Especially using highly charged language and emotions. This is called tone-policing. We are in the fucking pit. And people are allowed to be angry here. And people are allowed to use highly charged language, and they are allowed to express their emotions. Who the fuck are you to be lecturing people on the “correct” way to be concerned about what we are witnessing going on here? If the pit is offending your delicate sensibilities then there are other places you can post. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s time for that conversation. I don’t know that the time for the second conversation is now. We hear the same thing after every mass shooting. We heard the same thing after 9-11. Always kicking the can. Never the right time. Trust me: we’ve _heard this before._ You guys don’t get to control the conversation. This board has always been horrible to indigenous peoples, and I’ve never felt that more _strongly_ than in the last couple of days. I’ve stated that I’m staying out the Hamas/Israel threads because there are real people here on this boards that are going through the _unimaginable_ right now. But the casual dehumanization of the Palestinian people…it really fucking terrifies me. As if they can set-aside the way they’ve been treated until after the bombing is over. I have deliberately _chosen_ not to have this conversation here out of respect for the people who have been subjected to the horrific terror attacks conducted by Hamas. But don’t you fucking dare _order me_ not to have this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/43 "2023-10-14T01:08:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is called tone-policing. It’s called being a fucking adult, and not letting your emotions overwhelm your logic circuits. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/44 "2023-10-14T01:35:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It’s called being a fucking adult, and not letting your emotions overwhelm your logic circuits. …no, its called tone policing. Because nobody here has allowed their emotions to overcome their logic circuits. That isn’t happening. People are allowed to be emotional. And you don’t get to control that. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/45 "2023-10-14T01:58:22Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Sorry to interrupt, I’ll back out now. Nice proactive moderation! You really earned your coffee mug today. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/46 "2023-10-14T02:33:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And you don’t get to control that. I’m not attempting to control anything. I’m pointing it out. Sorry if that triggers you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/47 "2023-10-14T02:51:50Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Sorry if that triggers you. …I’m not the one that’s being triggered here. It’s the fucking pit. And nobody here is being “over the top.” If anything, people are bending over backwards to not upset anyone here, and rightly so. Why isn’t now the right time to discuss credible claims against the Israeli military of many things, including collective punishment, disproportionate use of force, IDF use of human shields, and misconduct by IDF soldiers? Do Palestinians not matter here? Do we want to pretend what is happening to Gaza right now, what will happen in the next few days, isn’t really happening? All in the name of “reading the room?” We can express our outrage over what Hamas has done without downplaying the devastation the IDF is responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/48 "2023-10-14T03:12:32Z")
A fool I may be, but I know the difference between a breaking news thread and the inevitable pits and debates that will follow. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/49 "2023-10-14T03:28:10Z")
I’m glad we can agree on something at least. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/50 "2023-10-14T03:29:35Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I described what Hamas did as “heinous acts of evil”, while you described the many thousands of Palestinian civilians killed as “collateral damage”. Well… what if they literally are? _ **Deliberately** _ so on the part of Hamas, who evidently consider the entire population of Gaza to be either the faithful who should gladly choose to die as martyrs for the cause, or apostates who deserve to die anyway? If someone is holding a baby in front of them while they’re shooting at me, I’m going to do my best to not hit the baby but I am going to shoot back. And if I hit the baby that’s on them, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/51 "2023-10-14T03:40:03Z")
Have you at least skimmed through [the Wikipedia article I posted?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/21) It seems unlikely to me that all the 6,407 or more Palestinian civilians over the time period were killed in the manner you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/52 "2023-10-14T04:21:02Z")
Here is a case study - a Palestinian nurse/paramedic who was shot by Israeli Defense Forces, who then attempted a cover-up: > **[Killing of Rouzan al-Najjar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rouzan_al-Najjar)** > > Rouzan Ashraf Abdul Qadir al-Najjar (Arabic: روزان أشراف عبد القادر النجار Rouzān 'Ashrāf 'Abd al-Qādir an-Najjār; 13 September 1997 – 1 June 2018) was a Palestinian nurse/paramedic who was killed by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) while volunteering as a medic during the 2018 Gaza border protests. She was fatally hit by a bullet shot by an Israeli soldier as she tried to help evacuate the wounded near Israel's border fence with Gaza. The IDF first denied that she was targeted, while no The el... ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/53 "2023-10-14T04:41:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Saying that a death was due to collateral damage does not make that death less tragic, the life that ended less meaningful, or the person doing the killing less culpable of the death. I was a child at the time but I remember adults specifically debating whether the term “collateral damage” was in fact a dehumanizing euphemism, and that it is disgusting to reduce human life to "collateral damage. When I was in high school a couple years later we discussed this video where servicemen mortared a building in the middle east and laughing at the civilians who were killed. The video was titled “Collateral Damage” or somesuch. So although I recognize “collateral damage” is military jargon - and for all I know, you may have been military - be aware it can carry a certain connotation in colloquial usage, at least in my experience. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/54 "2023-10-14T13:05:41Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Have you at least skimmed through [the Wikipedia article I posted?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/21) It seems unlikely to me that all the 6,407 or more Palestinian civilians over the time period were killed in the manner you describe Sorry, I was referring to the current situation Oct. 7, not the larger time period you were discussing. I will say however that if one insists that the Hamas attack cannot be taken in a vacuum, then neither can the Israeli response. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/55 "2023-10-14T14:41:07Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I would imagine, though, that from Hamas’ perspective, there were undoubtedly scores to settle, given that, since the beginning of 2008 and up to the end of August this year, Israel has killed 3,803 Palestinian civilians, with another 1,582 killed that were possibly civilians (so not counting the 1,022 “armed group” individuals killed), while Palestinians have killed only 177 Israeli civilians (and 131 Israeli soldiers). > > In my opinion, only the most blinkered and partisan person, completely without understanding of human psychology, would not understand the desire among many Palestinians for revenge and retribution. That is their own family members, women (at least 429) and children (at least 1,090) being killed. The exact same desire for revenge and retribution is currently being played out in many minds right now on the other side of the conflict, both in Israel and beyond. > > **Revenge/retribution is one of the key drivers of long-standing intercommunal violence.** If you can’t understand that, or just dismiss it, then you are part of the problem and are just prolonging the cycle of violence for future generations. The blood of future generations is on your hands. > > Those Israeli supporters with ultra-partisan mindsets absolve the Israeli military of all responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians and place the blame squarely on Hamas for all the deaths of their own people. There is some truth in this, but it is not the whole truth, as there are many reports of the Israeli military using heavy-handed tactics, or worse, as detailed in the Wikipedia article I posted previously. We can see that right now with what is going on in Gaza, with Israel’s bombing - which has already killed more Palestinian civilians than the number of Israeli civilians killed in the terror attacks, and things have only just begun - the denial of food, water, electricity and supplies to over 2 million Gazan civilians, and the displacement of over a million people from their homes. (My bold) Hear, hear! This is a brilliant post. I won’t wade into the Hamas threads because I am eternally frustrated by the intense blind spot I routinely see, amongst otherwise intelligent and reasonable people, towards the predictable human catastrophe playing out in the Middle East. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We hear the same thing after every mass shooting. We heard the same thing after 9-11. Always kicking the can. Never the right time. Trust me: we’ve _heard this before._ > > You guys don’t get to control the conversation. This board has always been horrible to indigenous peoples, and I’ve never felt that more _strongly_ than in the last couple of days. I’ve stated that I’m staying out the Hamas/Israel threads because there are real people here on this boards that are going through the _unimaginable_ right now. > > But **the casual dehumanization of the Palestinian people…it really fucking terrifies me.** As if they can set-aside the way they’ve been treated until after the bombing is over. (Another one of my bolds) This, too. I also won’t wade into those threads because I’m utterly disgusted by the dehumanization I routinely see whenever the Middle East is discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/56 "2023-10-14T19:04:46Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > I won’t wade into the Hamas threads because I am eternally frustrated by the intense blind spot I routinely see, amongst otherwise intelligent and reasonable people, towards the predictable human catastrophe playing out in the Middle East. Same, for what it’s worth. The idea that “both sidesism” or “whataboutism” are even possible with regard to this conflict is already too much for me to even bother trying to respond to. War crimes are bad. It’s ok to say that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/57 "2023-10-14T22:55:49Z")
Obviously deaths and injuries of and to the innocent are tragic and heart wrenching. But there is a difference in the philosophical foundations of the morality of the groups concerned. One faction explicitly states the desire for genocide. The other faction is far more tolerant and far more careful. One faction uses rape and targeted killing of infants as a form of warfare. The other side does not. These are fundamental differences. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/58 "2023-10-14T23:00:28Z")
I agree with you @octopus. Believe it or not. At the same time, there are actual, intentional atrocities carried about by Israelis against Palestinians. It’s nowhere near equivalent and doesn’t even come close to justifying the genocide that Hamas stands for. But it does happen and it’s important to acknowledge it, ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/59 "2023-10-14T23:16:52Z")
A Palestinian would probably argue that the reason the conflict is taking place and that people are dying at all is because Palestinians are resisting against an occupying force that is taking their land away from them and oppressing them. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/60 "2023-10-14T23:26:42Z")
Fine. Fight the Israelis. That is a point of view within the bounds of normal reasoning. Right? You can wage a just war against an oppressor. However, if we are to be consistent with logic and sets of morality once you engage in systematic targeting of infants and toddlers for murder and girls and women for rape you no longer have any moral defense from equivalent atrocities under that moral code. That’s the difference we have two sets of moral codes and one of them is, from the modern civilized perspective, more just. Not all sets of moral codes can peacefully coexist. But I detect a bit of hypocrisy in the thinking, not saying it’s your point of view, that deliberate and systematic atrocities are justifiable in the name of a so-called righteous cause. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=4)