# Reply to Babale re: Hamas and Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 12, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469 "2023-10-12T17:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/61 "2023-10-14T23:31:49Z")
…so it turns out when you follow a lot of Palestinians on Twitter, you wake up in the morning to story-after-story of multi-generational families just wiped out. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/62 "2023-10-14T23:57:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > One faction explicitly states the desire for genocide. …one faction has cut off the power, the electricity, the water, the internet, ordered 1 million people to evacuate and is bombing them, eliminating entire generations of families. These are _genocidal actions_. People don’t have to explicitly state a desire for genocide in order to commit a genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/63 "2023-10-15T00:02:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …one faction has cut off the power, the electricity, the water, the internet, ordered 1 million people to evacuate and is bombing them, eliminating entire generations of families. One side is fighting militants, and therefore asked the civilian population to evacuate the area. The other side raped and murdered civilians in cold blood, because civilians _are their targets_. Saying “get out of the area of heaviest fighting until it is over” is not a genocidal action. Murdering everyone is. The false equivocating continues. How telling people to evacuate became a fucking atrocity (as opposed to, you know, fighting Hamas without telling anyone to evacuate which would kill a lot more civilians) is absolutely beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/64 "2023-10-15T00:05:17Z")
Obviously, any deliberate murder of children is absolutely indefensible. What about this quote from Wikipedia, with perpetrator redacted? > [@](#): > > Between 347 and 504 civilians were killed by \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, and some soldiers mutilated and raped children who were as young as 12. These acts are evil, so surely the side that carried them out must be evil and has no claim to moral legitimacy? The perpetrator was… …the United States Army. That’s a description of the My Lai massacre of 1968 from the Vietnam War. Is there evidence that Hamas leaders have deliberately ordered the killing of women and civilians as an act of policy? They have denied it. Reports of babies being beheaded by Hamas are unverified: > [@](#): > > The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office. > > … > > A US administration official later clarified Biden’s remarks, telling CNN that neither Biden nor his aides had seen pictures or had received confirmed reports of children or infants having been beheaded by Hamas. The official clarified that Biden was referring to public comments from media outlets and Israeli officials. [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html) Regarding alleged rape, according to [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org), “there are no publicly confirmed examples of sexual assault.” > **[What We Know About Three Widespread Israel-Hamas War Claims - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/)** > > Since fighting broke out between Israel and Hamas militants on Oct. 7, misinformation about the war has circulated online. But a widely viewed and shared video supposedly correcting what the video calls "three lies about Palestine" and "atrocity... So it’s crucial to investigate and determine what the facts actually are. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/65 "2023-10-15T00:05:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The false equivocating continues. …bullshit. There is no equivocating here. Palestinians are being slaughtered. That _doesn’t_ excuse the actions of Hamas. But collective punishment is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/66 "2023-10-15T00:08:56Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Is there evidence that Hamas leaders have deliberately ordered the killing of women and civilians as an act of policy? They have denied it. 🤣 No apologists here, no sir. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/67 "2023-10-15T00:10:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > so it turns out when you follow a lot of Palestinians on Twitter, you wake up in the morning to story-after-story of multi-generational families just wiped out. ☹ I’ve been looking at Facebook posts for the last week of people in Toronto posting pictures of their Israeli family members that have been missing since last weekend. For the last 4 days these posts have largely been replaced with obituaries. It’s a shame these young people committed the crime of going to a music festival. Serves them right I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/68 "2023-10-15T00:12:29Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > It’s a shame these young people committed the crime of going to a music festival. Serves them right I guess. …this everyone, is what false equivocation looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/69 "2023-10-15T00:12:52Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > It’s a shame these young people committed the crime of going to a music festival. Serves them right I guess Well, you think of them as young _people_, but in fact they are young _colonizers_ and deserve their fate. 🙄 Plus a Hamas spokesman said it was an accident do you have proof that it wasn’t? /s, obviously ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/70 "2023-10-15T00:17:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > this everyone, is what false equivocation looks like. Bullshit. A random surprise attack on non-combatants vs. a pre-announced attack on terrorists who are using civilians as human shields and then they cry false tears when these civilians are killed. There is a real war crime here alright. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/71 "2023-10-15T00:20:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > ell, you think of them as young _people_, but in fact they are young _colonizers_ and deserve their fate. 🙄 …I think of them as young people who deserved to grow old, and enjoy life, and they were murdered by terrorist scum. I think that Hamas are an evil terrorist group that should no longer exist. And I also think that Israel should turn the power back on. Get the water flowing. Stop the indiscriminate bombing that has killed an estimated 500 children so far. I don’t think my position is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/72 "2023-10-15T00:24:17Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > terrorists who are using civilians as human shields …this is a talking point and used as an excuse for indiscriminate bombing. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > then they cry false tears I’m pretty sure those tears are real. Palestinians are humans, not animals. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/73 "2023-10-15T00:24:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > so it turns out when you follow a lot of Palestinians on Twitter, you wake up in the morning to story-after-story of multi-generational families just wiped out. To respond to this point with the seriousness it deserves, @Banquet_Bear - This is a tragic situation with a terrible human cost. I do not wish this on anyone. Palestinian civilians should not have to go through this. I hope that Hamas is swiftly destroyed so that the war can end and the process of putting together a permenant peace can begin. I also sincerely hope (and based on what I’ve been seeing coming out of Israel I believe this will happen) that Netanyahu, his cronies, and the even-further-right-fanatics that he pandered to are all thrown out of office and straight on their faces. Many (including Netanyahu himself) should land straight in jail. Their policies led to this mess, and have prevented progress being made on the path to peace. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/74 "2023-10-15T00:26:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 🤣 > > No apologists here, no sir. Again, you misread my posts and ascribe your own agenda onto them. I like to work with facts and evidence, rather than hearsay. I hope that anyone who has committed a war crime, on either side of the conflict, faces justice, ideally in a criminal court where the facts can be determined for all to see. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/75 "2023-10-15T00:29:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Palestinians are humans, not animals. So you are saying that all Palestinians are behind this, not just the Hamas terrorists? Weird stance to take on the side of terrorists. I don’t think it’s the Palestinian people. Hamas terrorists care only about their goals. All else is collateral damage to them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/76 "2023-10-15T00:30:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Palestinian civilians should not have to go through this. …and neither should the people of Israel. The innocent are suffering, and the innocent on either side deserve none of this. I mourn for those lost in the festival. For those lost in the incursion. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/77 "2023-10-15T00:30:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is a tragic situation with a terrible human cost. I do not wish this on anyone. Palestinian civilians should not have to go through this. I hope that Hamas is swiftly destroyed so that the war can end and the process of putting together a permenant peace can begin. > > I also sincerely hope (and based on what I’ve been seeing coming out of Israel I believe this will happen) that Netanyahu, his cronies, and the even-further-right-fanatics that he pandered to are all thrown out of office and straight on their faces. Many (including Netanyahu himself) should land straight in jail. Their policies led to this mess, and have prevented progress being made on the path to peace. Hear hear! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/78 "2023-10-15T00:32:07Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > All else is collateral damage to them. …the bombs being dropped by the IDF are causing the collateral damage. The electricity? The water? Israel can turn them back on whenever they like. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Weird stance to take on the side of terrorists. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/79 "2023-10-15T00:36:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Fuck you. Very witty comeback. Words matter and you equated the Palestinian people with Hamas. That’s on you, not me buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/80 "2023-10-15T00:49:39Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Again, you misread my posts and ascribe your own agenda onto them. > > I like to work with facts and evidence, rather than hearsay. What you said was: > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Is there evidence that Hamas leaders have deliberately ordered the killing of women and civilians as an act of policy? They have denied it. Are you _really_ questioning whether Hamas intentionally targets civilians? _Really_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=5)