# Reply to Babale re: Hamas and Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 12, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469 "2023-10-12T17:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/81 "2023-10-15T00:57:57Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > There is a real war crime here alright. Careful, or he’ll accuse you of \< shudder \> _tone policing._ ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/82 "2023-10-15T01:05:40Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Careful, or he’ll accuse you of \< shudder \> _tone policing._ More like the Keystone Kops. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/83 "2023-10-15T01:28:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are you _really_ questioning whether Hamas intentionally targets civilians? _Really_? No, Hamas have conducted indiscriminate bombings before. I was referring to the events of this week and to any cold-blooded execution-style killings of civilians that were part of it. I admit I should have been more clear on that. What I’m about to write is going to cause the cogs in your mind to whir and jam up. From the late 1960s to 1998, there was a conflict in Northern Ireland known as The Troubles, that spilled over the regional borders across the British Isles and beyond. Most independent-minded people today, including British, would agree that the Catholic community of Northern Ireland at that time was oppressed and they did not enjoy equal rights to the Protestant/loyalist communities they lived with. The struggle became an armed conflict with the Catholic side’s militants, the IRA (Irish Republican Army), planting bombs that killed civilians indiscriminately, including women and children. Between 500 and 644 civilians were killed by them. How the fuck does that work? Their cause was just, but they used methods that knowingly would kill innocent civilians. Are they the good guys or are they the bad guys? Why isn’t it all black and white with heroes on one side and villains on the other and easy for small minds to understand? What’s going on?!! If your brain is still working, I will add that loyalist militant forces on the other side of the conflict also killed civilians in indiscriminate bombings. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/84 "2023-10-15T02:36:45Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > What I’m about to write is going to cause the cogs in your mind to whir and jam up. I’m well familiar with the Troubles, you condescending prick. Of course, the IRA’s goal wasn’t to erase England as a nation and expel all Anglo-Saxons or all Protestants from the British Isles. As much as you try to white-wash it, Hamas’ explicit goal is to erase Israel and kill or expel all Jewish people from the area. There are Palestinian groups with a just cause, but Hamas is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/85 "2023-10-15T02:49:06Z")
Also, the loyalists weren’t the British Army. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/86 "2023-10-15T03:14:56Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > I also won’t wade into those threads because I’m utterly disgusted by the dehumanization I routinely see whenever the Middle East is discussed. It’s shocking honestly. That other thread had a debate that lasted way longer than it should have over whether polling support for Hamas among Gazans justified collective punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/87 "2023-10-15T03:16:34Z")
Indiscriminate killing of civilians and UK government figures did nothing to advance the IRA cause. What finally brought the UK government to the bargaining table was bombing banks and financial corporations, which threatened to cost the UK billions of pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/88 "2023-10-15T03:36:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m well familiar with the Troubles, you condescending prick. Of course, the IRA’s goal wasn’t to erase England as a nation and expel all Anglo-Saxons or all Protestants from the British Isles. > > As much as you try to white-wash it, Hamas’ explicit goal is to erase Israel and kill or expel all Jewish people from the area. There are Palestinian groups with a just cause, but Hamas is not one of them. Of course the IRA didn’t want to expel the “Anglo-Saxons” from the rest of the British Isles, you complete dickwad, because Irish Republicans didn’t claim the rest of the British Isles as their homeland. The following would suggest that the binary black and white view of everything your inherent bias gravitates you towards is inaccurate, as usual. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Political_policy): > [@](#): > > Hamas policy towards the two-state solution and towards Israel has evolved. > > … > > In 2005, Hamas signed the Palestinian Cairo Declaration, which recognized the 1967 borders, as did the Palestinian Prisoners’ Document, which Hamas signed in 2006. Hamas signed the Mecca Agreement in 2007 which recognized previous agreements between PLO and Israel. Finally Hamas signed the Cairo and Doha Agreements in 2011 and 2012. In 2017, Hamas unveiled a new charter that many scholar believed accepted the 1967 borders, but others disputed this. > > … > > In 2006, Hamas signed the Palestinian Prisoners’ Document, which recognized the 1967 borders. > > … > > Khaled Mashaal, its leader, has publicly affirmed the movement’s readiness to accept the borders of 1967. When Hamas won a majority in the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Haniyeh, then president-elect, sent messages to both George Bush and Israel’s leaders asking to be recognized and offering a long-term truce (hudna), along the 1967 border lines. No response came. > > In March 2006, Hamas released its official legislative program. The document clearly signaled that Hamas could refer the issue of recognizing Israel to a national referendum. Under the heading “Recognition of Israel,” it stated simply (AFP, 3/11/06): “The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people.” This was a major shift away from their 1988 charter. A few months later, via University of Maryland’s Jerome Segal, the group sent a letter to U.S. President George W. Bush stating they “don’t mind having a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders”, and asked for direct negotiations: “Segal emphasized that a state within the 1967 borders and a truce for many years could be considered Hamas’s de facto recognition of Israel.” > > … > > In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Mashal and former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the “right of return” to all Palestinian refugees. In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce “if Israel recognized the Palestinians’ national rights”. In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group’s support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: “We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital.” On December 1, 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated, “We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees,” and “Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles.” > > In November 2011, Hamas leader Khaled Mishal made an agreement with Mahmoud Abbas in Cairo, in which he committed to respecting the 1967 borders. > > In February 2012, according to the Palestinian authority, Hamas forswore the use of violence. Evidence for this was provided by an eruption of violence from Islamic Jihad in March 2012 after an Israeli assassination of a Jihad leader, during which Hamas refrained from attacking Israel. For balance: > [@](#): > > Israel has rejected some truce offers by Hamas because it contends the group uses them to prepare for more fighting rather than peace. The Atlantic magazine columnist Jeffrey Goldberg, along with other analysts, believes Hamas may be incapable of permanent reconciliation with Israel. Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University, writes that Hamas talks “of hudna [temporary ceasefire], not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.” > > Co-founder Yassin was convinced that Israel was endeavouring to destroy Islam, and concluded that loyal Muslims had a religious obligation to destroy Israel. The short-term goal of Hamas was to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation. The long-term aim sought to establish an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, remarkably similar to, and perhaps derived from, the Zionist notion of the same area under a Jewish majority. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/89 "2023-10-15T03:44:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Careful, or he’ll accuse you of \< shudder \> _tone policing._ > > [@WHO](#): > > WHO calls for Israel to immediately reverse evacuation orders to hospitals in northern Gaza, and calls for the protection of health facilities, health workers, patients, and civilians. > > WHO also reiterates its calls for the immediate and safe delivery of medical supplies, fuel, clean water, food, and other humanitarian aid into Gaza through the Rafah crossing, where life-saving assistance, including WHO health supplies that arrived earlier today, is currently awaiting entry. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/90 "2023-10-15T04:27:38Z")
The government of Israel and the IDF are pursuing horrendous policies that are offending all of us, therefore you seem to conclude that only they need to be taken to task. You seem to not grasp the complexity of the situation, or the history, or the recent attack on a music festival. There is lots of room for blame and as usual the civilians on both sides bear the brunt of the hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/91 "2023-10-15T06:06:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > that are offending all of us …I don’t care that they are “offending us.” I care that they are killing people. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You seem to not grasp the complexity of the situation, or the history, or the recent attack on a music festival. What the fuck does this even mean? What more do you want from me? I’ve condemned the music festival attacks. I’ve called Hamas murdering scum. What is it do you think that I don’t grasp? What do you want me to say? Here’s what just happened in this thread. Finn accused me of taking the side of the terrorists. You then chose to use that to _take a cheap shot at me_. If you are going to take Finn’s side on this, then fuck you too. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/92 "2023-10-15T13:01:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > What finally brought the UK government to the bargaining table was bombing banks and financial corporations, which threatened to cost the UK billions of pounds. I would not agree with this. Secret talks to solve the Troubles had been underway since the late 1980s. The bombings of London’s financial districts in 1992 and 1993 were not, I believe, decisive factors in bringing the conflict to an end. I would argue that it was not specific events that ended the Troubles, but rather the efforts of key individuals to find a political solution, cultivate relationships and build trust over a long period of time. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/93 "2023-10-15T13:40:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You seem to not grasp the complexity of the situation, or the history, or the recent attack on a music festival. Can you enlighten us? I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the history but I think the simplistic view that Israel is committing war crimes and should be criticized for it is correct and nothing about the complexities of the conflict change that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/94 "2023-10-15T14:13:17Z")
If you have a better plan to destroy Hamas without causing any collateral damage, then please, do share it. I mean, it’s just completely ridiculous. Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you try to fight Hamas in Gaza while civilians are there”. Then Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you tell civilians to evacuate Gaza so you can fight Hamas”. Maybe we can avoid international condemnation if we just line up and let Hamas gas us all, like many supposedly “pro-Palestinian” protestors have been chanting for us to do. (Here’s a pro tip: if someone claiming to be pro-Palestinian says that Palestinians should attack Israelis, they very clearly do not value Palestinian lives, other than as ammunition to throw at Israel, to be burned up in the process). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/95 "2023-10-15T14:30:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you try to fight Hamas in Gaza while civilians are there”. Then Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you tell civilians to evacuate Gaza so you can fight Hamas”. Well, hold up. These are consistent positions. If Israel makes choices that are likely to lead to hundreds, or thousands, or tens of thousands of deaths of civilians, almost all members of the same ethnicity, those choices are condemnable. I think you’re downplaying what Israel’s evacuation order is doing when you say things like: > [@Babale](#): > > One side is fighting militants, and therefore asked the civilian population to evacuate the area. Just about every humanitarian and human rights organization has declared that this “ask” has the potential to cause horrific suffering and death. Hospitals full to overflowing can’t move patients. There’s insufficient infrastructure in Southern Gaza, even if water and electricity are turned back on, to accommodate a million refugees overnight. Water-born plagues are likely to spread like wildfire. And Southern Gaza is still being bombed, even as folks are told to move there. > [@Babale](#): > > If you have a better plan to destroy Hamas without causing any collateral damage, then please, do share it. My plan isn’t original to me: it’s what the humanitarian groups are saying. The plan is this: move with deliberation. Before forcibly relocating a million people, set up humanitarian corridors. Turn the water and electricity back on. Ensure that there’s food, and medicine. This absolutely causes more immediate risk to Israeli soldiers, and that’s terrible. But by doing so, it becomes possible to relocate a million people without killing tens of thousands of people via disease and dehydration. And in the long term, it becomes less likely that a new generation will grow up with a blood feud with Israel. Edit: I realize I should bring cites. > **[Gaza: Forcing patients to flee hospitals a ‘death sentence’ warns WHO](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142347)** > > The UN Palestine refugee agency (UNRWA) issued an urgent call on Saturday for Israeli Authorities to protect all civilians sheltering in Gaza. > **[MSF: Israeli order to evacuate northern Gaza ‘outrageous’](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/msf-israeli-order-evacuate-northern-gaza-outrageous)** > > Safe spaces and safe passage urgently needed for civilians trapped in Gaza. > **[Hamas attack does not justify Gaza's destruction: Red Cross](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231013-hamas-attack-does-not-justify-gaza-s-destruction-red-cross)** > > The massive Hamas attack on Israel cannot justify the "limitless destruction" of the Gaza Strip, the Red Cross said Friday, as it called for pauses in the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/96 "2023-10-15T14:48:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Before forcibly relocating a million people, set up humanitarian corridors. How can Israel - which does not control Gaza - open up safe passage corridors within Gaza or from Gaza to Egypt? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/97 "2023-10-15T14:54:29Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > open up safe passage corridors within Gaza or from Gaza to Egypt? Rely on the expertise of Red Cross, MSF, WHO, and other organizations experienced at providing humanitarian relief in Gaza. I don’t need to make the plan: there are people on the ground right now who are pleading with Netanyahu to listen to them. I encourage you to read the three links above. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/98 "2023-10-15T14:56:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I encourage you to read the three links above. I will take a look, it was a serious question and not intended to be snark. I seriously doubt that Hamas will allow it. They want to be surrounded by civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/99 "2023-10-15T14:58:06Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I will take a look, it was a serious question and not intended to be snark. I seriously doubt that Hamas will allow it. They want to be surrounded by civilians. Yeah, Hamas is going to do their damnedest to stop it. And as I said, it’ll endanger the lives of Israeli soldiers. But if Israel has two simultaneous goals–eliminate the danger from Hamas, and avoid genocidal actions–I don’t see an alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469/100 "2023-10-15T14:58:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I mean, it’s just completely ridiculous. Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you try to fight Hamas in Gaza while civilians are there”. Then Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you tell civilians to evacuate Gaza so you can fight Hamas”. To add to what @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness says, Israel has been dealt a shitty hand. There are no good plays here, only less or more terrible ones. It’s not fair. After the immediate crisis is over, I pray Israel reconsiders everything. The continuous state of war, varying between cold and hot is destroying Israel as surely an enemy army would. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reply-to-babale-re-hamas-and-israel/991469.md?page=6)