Careful, or he’ll accuse you of < shudder > tone policing.
More like the Keystone Kops.
No, Hamas have conducted indiscriminate bombings before. I was referring to the events of this week and to any cold-blooded execution-style killings of civilians that were part of it. I admit I should have been more clear on that.
What I’m about to write is going to cause the cogs in your mind to whir and jam up.
From the late 1960s to 1998, there was a conflict in Northern Ireland known as The Troubles, that spilled over the regional borders across the British Isles and beyond. Most independent-minded people today, including British, would agree that the Catholic community of Northern Ireland at that time was oppressed and they did not enjoy equal rights to the Protestant/loyalist communities they lived with. The struggle became an armed conflict with the Catholic side’s militants, the IRA (Irish Republican Army), planting bombs that killed civilians indiscriminately, including women and children. Between 500 and 644 civilians were killed by them.
How the fuck does that work? Their cause was just, but they used methods that knowingly would kill innocent civilians. Are they the good guys or are they the bad guys? Why isn’t it all black and white with heroes on one side and villains on the other and easy for small minds to understand? What’s going on?!!
If your brain is still working, I will add that loyalist militant forces on the other side of the conflict also killed civilians in indiscriminate bombings.
I’m well familiar with the Troubles, you condescending prick. Of course, the IRA’s goal wasn’t to erase England as a nation and expel all Anglo-Saxons or all Protestants from the British Isles.
As much as you try to white-wash it, Hamas’ explicit goal is to erase Israel and kill or expel all Jewish people from the area. There are Palestinian groups with a just cause, but Hamas is not one of them.
Also, the loyalists weren’t the British Army.
It’s shocking honestly. That other thread had a debate that lasted way longer than it should have over whether polling support for Hamas among Gazans justified collective punishment.
Indiscriminate killing of civilians and UK government figures did nothing to advance the IRA cause. What finally brought the UK government to the bargaining table was bombing banks and financial corporations, which threatened to cost the UK billions of pounds.
Of course the IRA didn’t want to expel the “Anglo-Saxons” from the rest of the British Isles, you complete dickwad, because Irish Republicans didn’t claim the rest of the British Isles as their homeland.
The following would suggest that the binary black and white view of everything your inherent bias gravitates you towards is inaccurate, as usual.
From Wikipedia:
For balance:
The government of Israel and the IDF are pursuing horrendous policies that are offending all of us, therefore you seem to conclude that only they need to be taken to task.
You seem to not grasp the complexity of the situation, or the history, or the recent attack on a music festival.
There is lots of room for blame and as usual the civilians on both sides bear the brunt of the hatred.
…I don’t care that they are “offending us.” I care that they are killing people.
What the fuck does this even mean?
What more do you want from me?
I’ve condemned the music festival attacks. I’ve called Hamas murdering scum. What is it do you think that I don’t grasp? What do you want me to say?
Here’s what just happened in this thread. Finn accused me of taking the side of the terrorists. You then chose to use that to take a cheap shot at me. If you are going to take Finn’s side on this, then fuck you too.
I would not agree with this. Secret talks to solve the Troubles had been underway since the late 1980s. The bombings of London’s financial districts in 1992 and 1993 were not, I believe, decisive factors in bringing the conflict to an end.
I would argue that it was not specific events that ended the Troubles, but rather the efforts of key individuals to find a political solution, cultivate relationships and build trust over a long period of time.
Can you enlighten us? I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the history but I think the simplistic view that Israel is committing war crimes and should be criticized for it is correct and nothing about the complexities of the conflict change that.
If you have a better plan to destroy Hamas without causing any collateral damage, then please, do share it.
I mean, it’s just completely ridiculous. Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you try to fight Hamas in Gaza while civilians are there”. Then Israel is told “you are being ethnic cleansing maniacs when you tell civilians to evacuate Gaza so you can fight Hamas”.
Maybe we can avoid international condemnation if we just line up and let Hamas gas us all, like many supposedly “pro-Palestinian” protestors have been chanting for us to do. (Here’s a pro tip: if someone claiming to be pro-Palestinian says that Palestinians should attack Israelis, they very clearly do not value Palestinian lives, other than as ammunition to throw at Israel, to be burned up in the process).
Well, hold up. These are consistent positions. If Israel makes choices that are likely to lead to hundreds, or thousands, or tens of thousands of deaths of civilians, almost all members of the same ethnicity, those choices are condemnable.
I think you’re downplaying what Israel’s evacuation order is doing when you say things like:
Just about every humanitarian and human rights organization has declared that this “ask” has the potential to cause horrific suffering and death. Hospitals full to overflowing can’t move patients. There’s insufficient infrastructure in Southern Gaza, even if water and electricity are turned back on, to accommodate a million refugees overnight. Water-born plagues are likely to spread like wildfire. And Southern Gaza is still being bombed, even as folks are told to move there.
My plan isn’t original to me: it’s what the humanitarian groups are saying. The plan is this: move with deliberation. Before forcibly relocating a million people, set up humanitarian corridors. Turn the water and electricity back on. Ensure that there’s food, and medicine.
This absolutely causes more immediate risk to Israeli soldiers, and that’s terrible. But by doing so, it becomes possible to relocate a million people without killing tens of thousands of people via disease and dehydration. And in the long term, it becomes less likely that a new generation will grow up with a blood feud with Israel.
Edit: I realize I should bring cites.
How can Israel - which does not control Gaza - open up safe passage corridors within Gaza or from Gaza to Egypt?
Rely on the expertise of Red Cross, MSF, WHO, and other organizations experienced at providing humanitarian relief in Gaza. I don’t need to make the plan: there are people on the ground right now who are pleading with Netanyahu to listen to them. I encourage you to read the three links above.
I will take a look, it was a serious question and not intended to be snark. I seriously doubt that Hamas will allow it. They want to be surrounded by civilians.
Yeah, Hamas is going to do their damnedest to stop it. And as I said, it’ll endanger the lives of Israeli soldiers. But if Israel has two simultaneous goals–eliminate the danger from Hamas, and avoid genocidal actions–I don’t see an alternative.
To add to what @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness says, Israel has been dealt a shitty hand. There are no good plays here, only less or more terrible ones. It’s not fair.
After the immediate crisis is over, I pray Israel reconsiders everything. The continuous state of war, varying between cold and hot is destroying Israel as surely an enemy army would.