# Representative George Santos: Indictment and Prosecution (Expelled from Congress on Dec 1, 2023) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 10, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850 "2023-05-10T14:28:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/541 "2023-12-03T14:16:58Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > So is this clown going to face criminal charges? I’m not hearing discussion about that. See @Atamasama’s post 398 above: > [@Representative George Santos: Indictment and Prosecution (Expelled from Congress on Dec 1, 2023)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/399): > > Oh yeah. A whole boatload of them. He previously pled “not guilty” to 13 different counts, 10 more came out last month in a newer indictment. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/542 "2023-12-03T17:56:11Z")
Upon reflection, the Democrats should have left him alone and let him stick around. Wring every drop of campaign value out of him, and let him stay as an albatross around the neck of the GOP. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/543 "2023-12-03T19:07:24Z")
I think most House Dems decided the damage he was doing to the House as an institution far outweighed the temporary political advantage he gave them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/544 "2023-12-03T19:11:33Z")
And you can’t say “Look at the Republicans who didn’t get rid of him!” if you didn’t try to get rid of him, either. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/545 "2023-12-03T19:21:28Z")
Once the Republican Chair of the Ethics Committee forced a vote on an expulsion resolution, what were Democrats supposed to do? Vote no? Then they’re the ones getting attacked for supporting Santos. Abstain? A couple did, but abstentions in mass would open them up to charges of political gamesmanship. Nah, any organized Democratic effort to save Santos would have been playing too cute by half. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/546 "2023-12-03T19:31:16Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Nah, any organized Democratic effort to save Santos would have been playing too cute by half. “The Adorable Party” does have a nice ring to it. > [@Chronos](#): > > And you can’t say “Look at the Republicans who didn’t get rid of him!” if you didn’t try to get rid of him, either. If I know a guy is stealing, and I say “His friends in the same department knew he was stealing and don’t seem to care,” it’s not on me to get rid of him. He was _their_ mess just as Menedez is a Democratic mess. Why help them get rid of a burr under their saddle? > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I think most House Dems decided the damage he was doing to the House as an institution far outweighed the temporary political advantage he gave them. Call me cynical, but Santos wasn’t even close to the most damaging, just the squeakiest wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/547 "2023-12-03T19:35:31Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > He was _their_ mess just as Menedez is a Democratic mess. Why help them get rid of a burr under their saddle? Because no matter who caused the mess, elected officials’ responsibility is to clean it up if it is impacting the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/548 "2023-12-03T19:40:00Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > If I know a guy is stealing, and I say “His friends in the same department knew he was stealing and don’t seem to care,” it’s not on me to get rid of him. and in this analogy, when the big boss discovers what’s been going on, and that you knew someone was robbing from the company, and that you didn’t let management know; how is that conversation between you and big boss going to go, do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/549 "2023-12-03T19:46:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > and that you didn’t let management know; But management (in this case, I presume the American people) _do_ know. Do they think better of the Democrats for helping to kick him out? (This isn’t rhetorical-I’m really curious if the voters approve of it). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/550 "2023-12-03T19:56:39Z")
I just don’t think it’s a very good analogy, because all of the House of Reps makes the decision. Once that matter comes to a vote, if the Dems voted to keep him, then they’ve voted for a thief, and they’re tarred with it. If they vote present or abstain, then the message is that they don’t care if there’s a thief in Congress. The only good option for them is to vote to kick the thief out of Congress. (I’ve given up trying to understand how American voters make their decisions, but that’s how it strikes me.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/551 "2023-12-03T22:09:32Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Because no matter who caused the mess, elected officials’ responsibility is to clean it up if it is impacting the American people. This. Country before Party. Hard to fathom in these times. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/552 "2023-12-03T23:48:28Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > (I’ve given up trying to understand how American voters make their decisions, but that’s how it strikes me.) I’m an American voter and that’s how I’d see it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/553 "2023-12-04T00:55:10Z")
My take on it vis-a-vis the voters is: the voters of NY District 3 voted for an Economics graduate with a Masters, succesful investment banking professional, of a family with tragic backstories involving the Holocaust an 9/11. I believe a very large number of them are not at all amused that somebody who was _none_ of those things showed up to take the seat after _also_ having committed multiple acts of actual criminal fraud. Now, sure, George and his supporters tried to turn it around and turn it into that voters wanted a new-face Republican and he IS that so why not let the voters judge if he satisfies them with what he does _now_, let’s not talk about the past. Democrat Al Green of Texas (Houston Metro area) voted present and offered a justification in the Chamber, that even though this is an inherent constitutional power of the House to judge its members and remove them if they are found wanting, he still considers it unjust that it be entirely internal to the political body and require no prior conviction, so it’s a right that should be prudent to decline to exercise it. That “now your staying in the House depends on whatever 290 others decide is acceptable”. To which we could say, well, maybe it IS a reasonable thing to _ **not** _ act in a way that is repugnant to 290 of your colleagues. (One of the others member mentioned in the debate, that though the Constitution _specifies causes_ for impeachments of officials of the other branches, it does not do so for expulsions from Congress. But still if 3/4 of the body wants you gone as with Santos, it can’t be an accident…) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/554 "2023-12-04T01:05:38Z")
Now again, I’m torn. I agree that kicking him out without a conviction seems to set a bad precedent. But at the same time, I agree that he needed to go. Does this conflict with what I wrote earlier? I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/555 "2023-12-04T01:08:45Z")
In a truly just world, he’d have already had that conviction before the House vote. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/556 "2023-12-04T01:13:51Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Now again, I’m torn. I agree that kicking him out without a conviction seems to set a bad precedent. But at the same time, I agree that he needed to go. Does this conflict with what I wrote earlier? I’m not sure. No. Remember what we’ve discussed earlier - the (admitted and confirmed!) breaches of faith and trust in any previous age would have had such an individual quickly resign. A conviction would not have been needed, and any convictions would have happened quietly to the “disgraced former representative” with minimal fuss. We live in an age where the denier in chief has made a thick face, and zero responsibility to their position a pro, rather than a con (yes, I wanted to work that in!) for Republican critters. This is what the party has made of itself - and they remain quite willing to break all the gentleman’s agreements, points of order, and good conduct for power. So Mr. Santos (if that is his real name) is just one of the more prominent cysts exploding out of the festering heap that is the modern Republican party - one that they chose to lance since it was unsightly rather than deal with the underlying infections. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/557 "2023-12-04T01:31:07Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Now again, I’m torn. I agree that kicking him out without a conviction seems to set a bad precedent. But at the same time, I agree that he needed to go. Does this conflict with what I wrote earlier? I’m not sure. Setting a precedent that a member may ONLY be expelled from the House upon a criminal conviction seems just as bad. Congress would essentially be turning their Constitutional responsibility to determine what conduct warrant expulsion over to the executive and judicial branches. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/558 "2023-12-04T01:35:20Z")
I can see the argument that you should have a conviction if all of the relevant behavior has not been verified to have happened. There’s the idea that you need some proof that the facts occurred, so that it can’t be just a purely political decision (like it was in Tennessee). But if the facts are verified, I think it makes sense to allow it. Speaking of Tennessee: could he run in the special election for his office? That’s what the expelled Democrats did in that state. And they won, since their constituents did not think the expulsion was warranted. That was the obvious check on theirl power to expel them. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/559 "2023-12-04T01:47:31Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > But management (in this case, I presume the American people) _do_ know. Do they think better of the Democrats for helping to kick him out? (This isn’t rhetorical-I’m really curious if the voters approve of it). In theory — and this is coming from an A rated pollster — there is potential for a yes answer: > **[NY 3 Voters Say Santos Should Resign 78-13%, Including 71% of Reps – Siena...](https://scri.siena.edu/2023/01/31/ny-3-voters-say-santos-should-resign-78-13-including-71-of-reps/)** I say potential because the poll was about resignation, not expulsion, but more because few voters know the partisan breakdown of the vote to expel, and those who do, if like me, will forget what it was long before the next election. The expulsion was not, I think, the kind of event that will affect voter behavior. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850/560 "2023-12-04T01:58:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Speaking of Tennessee: could he run in the special election for his office? That’s what the expelled Democrats did in that state. And they won, since their constituents did not think the expulsion was warranted. That was the obvious check on theirl power to expel them. There is no legal bar to an expelled member being reelected to the House. My understanding of NY election law is that local party officials will decide who will run under the Republican and Democratic banner in the special election – good luck to him getting their blessing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/representative-george-santos-indictment-and-prosecution-expelled-from-congress-on-dec-1-2023/983850.md?page=29)