# Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089 "2004-11-05T00:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/61 "2004-11-05T06:00:00Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Stoid, your position, such as it is, :rolleyes: has been obvious from the day you first posted. Sphincter, check. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/62 "2004-11-05T06:04:44Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Ain’t gonna fucking happen. Not while I draw breath. Ya. You just have to ‘get the word out’, huh? Golly, that is all that is keeping America from turning into some sort of lefty paradise, you just haven’t made your views known! :rolleyes: Try more like your message _has_ gotten out, and it just ain’t what most of the voters in this country are looking for. It will be nice to have a fillibuster-proof Senate for a couple of years. Lots of changes to be made, you know. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/63 "2004-11-05T06:08:20Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ya. You just have to ‘get the word out’, huh? Golly, that is all that is keeping America from turning into some sort of lefty paradise, you just haven’t made your views known! :rolleyes: > > Try more like your message _has_ gotten out, and it just ain’t what most of the voters in this country are looking for. > > It will be nice to have a fillibuster-proof Senate for a couple of years. Lots of changes to be made, you know. We’ve mortgaged our future, I hope you enjoy the extension. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/64 "2004-11-05T06:09:31Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > We’ve mortgaged our future, I hope you enjoy the extension. Ah, you are in the ‘O NO ITS TEH END OF THE WORLD!@!!!@!11’ crowd, I see. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/65 "2004-11-05T06:12:23Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ah, you are in the ‘O NO ITS TEH END OF THE WORLD!@!!!@!11’ crowd, I see. Nope, must be your reading comprehension getting in the way again. Feel free to point out where I said that. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/66 "2004-11-05T06:12:33Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And incidentally, I did not suggest that Republicans are simpletons at all, in fact, I was pretty clear that this is not at all the case (see my opening paragraph) What I did suggest is that simpletons tend to vote Republican, precisely because they are so very easy to manipulate. I see. Republicans aren’t simpletons, but naturally simpletons are republicans. You can split hairs if you like here. If you’d prefer me to say that they way you _express_ your political views is extreme, disingenuous, and rude; but your Politics are acceptable – I’m willing to do that. You do realize that the delivery can make or break the message, don’t you? I bet Karl Rove does. He’s a bastard, but damn if I don’t want that guy in my marketing department. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/67 "2004-11-05T06:13:30Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ya. You just have to ‘get the word out’, huh? Golly, that is all that is keeping America from turning into some sort of lefty paradise, you just haven’t made your views known! :rolleyes: > > Try more like your message _has_ gotten out, and it just ain’t what most of the voters in this country are looking for. > > It will be nice to have a fillibuster-proof Senate for a couple of years. Lots of changes to be made, you know. Their view got out, but we were just to stupid and ignorant to understand them. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/68 "2004-11-05T06:15:26Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Their view got out, but we were just to stupid and ignorant to understand them. no use big word! me no get word with more than one sound in it! me go chase dog now-good fun! ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/69 "2004-11-05T06:22:46Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ah, you are in the ‘O NO ITS TEH END OF THE WORLD!@!!!@!11’ crowd, I see. Not necessarily. In a very real way we are mortgaged. The trade deficit is akin to a businessman paying out more in direct costs than his business is taking in. The budget deficit is akin to that same businessman following that fundamental mistake by buying on credit. Believe it or don’t, someone owns that debt. Blame it on Bush or insist that he’s the man to fix it (love the irony)… we’re mortgaged. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/70 "2004-11-05T06:27:13Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Not necessarily. In a very real way we are mortgaged. The trade deficit is akin to a businessman paying out more in direct costs than his business is taking in. The budget deficit is akin to that same businessman following that fundamental mistake by buying on credit. Believe it or don’t, someone owns that debt. > > Blame it on Bush or insist that he’s the man to fix it (love the irony)… we’re mortgaged. Don’t bring any logic, you’ll just make their puny heads explode. They best they can do is lob pathetic one liners over their sad little walls of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/71 "2004-11-05T06:29:41Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > …They best they can do is lob pathetic one liners over their sad little walls of ignorance. And win elections. Don’t forget the ‘win elections’ part. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/72 "2004-11-05T06:33:17Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > And win elections. Don’t forget the ‘win elections’ part. Feel free to take a look at history, it’s rife with fools being suckered by those at the top. WMDs anyone? ---
**Author:** ![randomlyblanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@randomlyblanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomlyblanks)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/73 "2004-11-05T06:39:43Z")
[http://www.idrewthis.org/2004/confusedvoters.html](http://www.idrewthis.org/2004/confusedvoters.html) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/74 "2004-11-05T06:43:30Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Feel free to take a look at history, it’s rife with fools being suckered by those at the top… Yep. Some 59 million of us were _suckered_. Damn, if only we had your keen intellect. Sure, we would probably become all disfunctional and nutty like you, but at least we would have voted for the correct candidate! ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/75 "2004-11-05T06:44:34Z")
**Stoid** wrote > [@](#): > > Just finding ME extreme doesn’t prove that my politics, or those of the other 55 million people who voted the way I did, are extreme. And again: just because you’re an extremist doesn’t mean the 55 million who voted for Kerry are also extremist. And in fact they’re not. Just like the Republicans, 95+% of them are very reasonable people. > [@](#): > > And incidentally, I did not suggest that Republicans are simpletons at all, in fact, I was pretty clear that this is not at all the case (see my opening paragraph) What I did suggest is that simpletons tend to vote Republican, precisely because they are so very easy to manipulate. Which makes sense, given that Republicans in general, Karl Rove in particular, are vastly more skilled at manipulation than Democrats are. And there’s my point in spades. “Simpletons tend to vote republican”, “Republicans are vastly more skilled at Manipulation”. I’m relatively certain that you’re saying these things fully from the heart; these aren’t ventings; these aren’t things said after a couple beers; these are things from inside the real you. And the funny thing is that these are pretty moderate statements for you. Fortunately, most of the rest of us in the center of the bell curve aren’t quite so hateful, spiteful, and filled with distrust and denial. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/76 "2004-11-05T06:50:53Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Yep. Some 59 million of us were _suckered_. Damn, if only we had your keen intellect. Sure, we would probably become all disfunctional and nutty like you, but at least we would have voted for the correct candidate! Did you see the facts in the link right above your post? Obviously a hell of a lot of Republicans are in dire need of keen intellect, factual information, a newspaper, etc… I’ll give you enough credit to assume you at least know what Bush’s positions are. But obviously, a hell of a lot of those who voted for Bush _had no fucking clue_ Note: this is not me bashing all Republicans. I can respect a difference of opinion… If you come out and say “I think that bussiness is more important than the enviornment.” I’ll disagree with you, but I’ll respect your honesty. If you say “George Bush has done a good job in Iraq, etc…” I’ll call you on having no connection with reality. But such is life, the clueless helped you to win the election. Whee. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/77 "2004-11-05T06:57:53Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Fortunately, most of the rest of us in the center of the bell curve aren’t quite so hateful, spiteful, and filled with distrust and denial. > [@Bill H.](#): > > There’s nothing that makes winning sweeter than hearing the anguished crys of the sore losers that you’ve crushed under your jackboot. Now THAT is funny. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/78 "2004-11-05T07:00:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Did you see the facts in the link right above your post? No. I see some snippets from a skeevy-assed report that is all the rage with the lefties these days, but I don’t see any ‘facts’. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/79 "2004-11-05T07:07:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you come out and say “I think that bussiness is more important than the enviornment.” I’ll disagree with you, but I’ll respect your honesty. If you say “George Bush has done a good job in Iraq, etc…” I’ll call you on having no connection with reality. 'zackly. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/80 "2004-11-05T07:21:58Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. I see some snippets from a skeevy-assed report that is all the rage with the lefties these days, but I don’t see any ‘facts’. “Skeevy-assed” report? Are you kidding me? You are a seriously sad person, Brutus. I mean that. [SkeevLand](http://www.pipa.org/) > [@](#): > > The Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) carries out research on public opinion on foreign policy and international issues by conducting nationwide polls, focus groups and comprehensive reviews of polling conducted by other organizations. > PIPA is a joint program of the Center on Policy Attitudes (COPA) and the Center for International and Security Studies at Maryland (CISSM), School of Public Affairs, University of Maryland. > > * * * > > Since its inception, the Program on International Policy Attitudes has regularly asked Americans not only about their attitudes but also their perceptions of reality. We have frequently found that such perceptions often diverge from reality and provide important insights into attitudes. Since shortly after the Iraq war PIPA has regularly asked Americans about their perceptions as to whether before the war Iraq had WMD and whether it provided substantial support to al Qaeda. To a striking extent, majorities have believed that Iraq did have WMD or at least a major program for developing them, and that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. With the reports of David Kay, the 9/11 Commission, the Senate Intelligence Committee, and most recently Charles Duelfer all refuting these beliefs, they have only modestly diminished, and are still held by approximately half of the public. > > * * * > > In recent months the American public has been presented reports by the Senate Intelligence Committee, and the heads of the Iraq survey group David Kay and Charles Duelfer (chosen by the president), concluding that before the war Iraq had neither weapons of mass destruction nor even a significant program for developing them. Nonetheless, 72% of Bush supporters continued to hold to the view that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Only 26% of Kerry supporters hold such beliefs. > > Though this poll was taken immediately after chief weapons inspector Charles Duelfer delivered his report to Congress on whether Iraq had WMD, a majority of Bush supporters misperceived the conclusions of his report. Fifty-seven percent believed that that he concluded that Iraq did have either WMD (19%) or a major program for developing them (38%). > > * * * > > Despite the report of the 9/11 Commission saying there is no evidence Iraq was providing significant support to al Qaeda, 75% of Bush supporters believe Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (30% of Kerry supporters), with 20% believing that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11. Sixty-three percent of Bush supporters even believe that clear evidence of this support has been found, while 85% of Kerry supporters believe the opposite. > > * * * > > Large majorities of Bush and Kerry supporters agree that the Bush administration is saying that Iraq had WMD and was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. In regard to WMD, these majorities are growing. So why are Bush supporters clinging so tightly to these beliefs in the face of repeated disconfirmations? Apparently one key reason is that they continue to hear the Bush administration confirming these beliefs. Among Bush supporters, an overwhelming 82% perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or a major WMD program (19%). Only 16% of Bush supporters perceive the administration as saying that Iraq had some limited activities, but not an active program (15%) or had nothing (1%). The pattern on al Qaeda is similar. Seventy-five percent of Bush supporters think the Bush administration is currently saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (56%) or even that it was directly involved in 9/11 (19%). Further, 55% of Bush supporters say it is their impression the Bush administration is currently saying the US has found clear evidence Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda (not saying clear evidence found: 37%). Interestingly, these perceptions of what the Bush administration is saying are something on which Bush and Kerry supporters agree. On WMD, 84% of Kerry supporters perceive the Bush administration as saying Iraq had WMD (73%) or a major program (11%). And so forth. I repeat: The election was won with lies, by getting the votes of the ignorant through manipulation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=5)