# Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089 "2004-11-05T00:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/101 "2004-11-05T23:58:04Z")
The republicans **did** tell outrageous lies about Kerry. If this disturbs you, don’t vote republican. But don’t claim that y’all have been honest, either. (maybe you personaly didn’t lie, but Rove and his buddies sure did) Many people who were uninformed/unintelligent **did** vote for Bush. This is simply a fact. Again, sorry if it disturbs you, but it’s the truth. There was a massive appeal to fear used by the Bush campaign, and many voters this go around were uninformed. Again, this is **truth**. Sorry if you don’t like it. Bush has lied, and has given illegal no-bid contracts to halliburton, etc… so, again, corruption is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. Rove and the republicans **are** better at distortions, lies, fearmongering, manipulation. Again, this is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. Bush’s lies and cherrypicking of intelligence **did** (and will continue) to lead to the deaths and maimings of hundreds of American citizens. This is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. And nobody said the republicans are pedophiles, simply that if they were, someone would find a way to rationlize it. (much like you’ve done in your post with other facets of the administration) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/102 "2004-11-06T00:22:56Z")
Blah blah blah. Saying it’s fact, doesn’t make it true, and neither does bolding it. If you print it in 36pt font, it still won’t be true. You can lie to yourself, and you can lie amongst yourselves. You can all sit in a circle and wail “we lost because we were more honest”, “we lost because we were smarter”, “we lost because we treated the people with respect, and the oppostion treated them like buffoons”. Yeah, right. Meanwhile, the other side is in power, and holds more power than they did last election. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/103 "2004-11-06T00:33:13Z")
Yes, **Bill** , we know that. That’s what we’re pissed about. We covered this. We also know that you know he lied when he said he was certain. What we can’t understand is you shrugging it off. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/104 "2004-11-06T00:40:17Z")
BTW, Bush has increased his lead to over 4,668,000 and 52-47% ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/105 "2004-11-06T00:48:13Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Blah blah blah. Saying it’s fact, doesn’t make it true, and neither does bolding it. If you print it in 36pt font, it still won’t be true. Oh, so you want cites? Fair deal. After you read this, I expect you to concede that we are right. Otherwise, you go in the column of “ignorant and uninformed.” (sorry, that too is a fact.) [Republican lies about Democrats](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/04/faith/) [Republicans ignorant of their own candidate’s positions (this was covered in this thread already, how did you miss it?)](http://www.pipa.org/) [corruption and Halliburton](http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=3617&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported) [no ‘certainty’, cherrypicked intelligence](http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=5430&format=) [no connection between Iraq and Al Queda](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp) > [@Bill H.](#): > > You can lie to yourself, and you can lie amongst yourselves. Naw, you’ve got that covered. I’ll stick to facts, thank you kindly. > [@Bill H.](#): > > You can all sit in a circle and wail “we lost because we were more honest”, “we lost because we were smarter”, “we lost because we treated the people with respect, and the oppostion treated them like buffoons”. No… we were lost becuase the republican machine beat us. Because people like you swallowed the lies. The cites are right above you, do you have courage, honor, and integrity? Or are you going to hold to the party line? > [@Bill H.](#): > > Meanwhile, the other side is in power, and holds more power than they did last election. And was elected by a, largely, clueless population. You must be so proud. I hate willful ignorance. Either have some courage and say “Yes, the president is a liar, and I’m just fine with that.” Or continue to shove you head somewhere dark and warm and sing “lalalalala, I can’t heaaaaaaaaar you.” ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/106 "2004-11-06T00:49:26Z")
Bill, your whole post boiled down to exactly what I said in my last post. You are identifying WAY too closely with BushCo. Unless are part of the Republican Administration itself, I think you need to re-evaluate your feelings about being called scum. Also review the simpletons comment and the OP side by side… if you choose to SELF-IDENTIFY as a simpleton, that’s not on ME. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/107 "2004-11-06T00:50:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The republicans **did** tell outrageous lies about Kerry. If this disturbs you, don’t vote republican. But don’t claim that y’all have been honest, either. (maybe you personaly didn’t lie, but Rove and his buddies sure did) OK. So did the Democrats. [Cite](http://factcheck.org/article298.html)for the ad Kerry ran saying Bush had a secret plan to privatize Social Security after the election and cut benefits 30-45%, knowing all along Bush had pledged not to cut benefits and had made no secret of his intent to move towards privatization. So if Kerry had won, I assume you’d be here, outraged, that the Democrats won by telling LIES. Actually, I don’t assume that, because you wouldn’t, you hypocrite. > [@](#): > > Many people who were uninformed/unintelligent **did** vote for Bush. This is simply a fact. Again, sorry if it disturbs you, but it’s the truth. Yes. True. And so were many people that voted for Kerry. > [@](#): > > There was a massive appeal to fear used by the Bush campaign, and many voters this go around were uninformed. Again, this is **truth**. Sorry if you don’t like it. And so did Kerry - claiming that Bush would cut Social Security is an appeal to fear, and anyone who believed that was uninformed. Many did. Kerry said that Bush had created tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. [Cite.](http://factcheck.org/article225.html) But Bush didn’t – the tax code provision had been there for decades. This is clearly an appeal to fear – the fear of losing your job to an overseas source. > [@](#): > > Bush has lied, and has given illegal no-bid contracts to halliburton, etc… so, again, corruption is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. Cite for this claim? > [@](#): > > Rove and the republicans **are** better at distortions, lies, fearmongering, manipulation. Again, this is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. I just showed that Kerry used the same tactics. So if I concede that Rove and the Republicans are better… then your complaint seems to be that we are better at using these terrible tactics than you are. Waaaahh! > [@](#): > > Bush’s lies and cherrypicking of intelligence **did** (and will continue) to lead to the deaths and maimings of hundreds of American citizens. This is a **fact**. If you don’t like it, don’t vote republican. I contend that although Bush was mistaken on the presence of WMD, the actions we took in Iraq were sound, _even though they cost lives_. Listen: Roosevelt’s decision to get us involved in WWII cost over a hundred thousand dead Americans. But it was the right decision, even though it lead to deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/108 "2004-11-06T00:52:44Z")
> [@TWOTfan](#): > > BTW, Bush has increased his lead to over 4,668,000 and 52-47% The only numbers I believe are the paper ballots. [http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays\_show.html](http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/109 "2004-11-06T01:01:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if Kerry had won, I assume you’d be here, outraged, that the Democrats won by telling LIES. Yep > [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, I don’t assume that, because you wouldn’t, you hypocrite. Since this is the pit… Fuck you asshole. I’m not a democrat, and I hold truth as one of my highest virtues. Fuck you. > [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. True. And so were many people that voted for Kerry. Not nearly as large a percentage. Nor do I see how pointing out that the other guy’s support was fucked changes the fact that yours was. > [@Bricker](#): > > And so did Kerry - claiming that Bush would cut Social Security is an appeal to fear, and anyone who believed that was uninformed. Many did. Kerry said that Bush had created tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. [Cite.](http://factcheck.org/article225.html) But Bush didn’t – the tax code provision had been there for decades. This is clearly an appeal to fear – the fear of losing your job to an overseas source. Your **point?** Or are we back at recess in second grade? “But but but… he did it first!” I don’t care **who** lied. It is wrong, it is immoral, and it should be fought. Pointing out how the other side lied is beneath you and doesn’t prove a goddamn thing about your side. > [@Bricker](#): > > Cite for this claim? Check the FBI investigation or the cite I already gave. > [@Bricker](#): > > I just showed that Kerry used the same tactics. So if I concede that Rove and the Republicans are better… then your complaint seems to be that we are better at using these terrible tactics than you are. I’m not a democrat. Wanna blow some more smoke? Do you want to have any **honor** at all? Will you, right here, right now, say in bold text: “I am embarrased and ashamed that my party used such dishonest and underhanded tactics?” If not, I will have to question your moral foundation as you seem to be conent with saying “well, the other guys did it too!” > [@Bricker](#): > > I contend that although Bush was mistaken on the presence of WMD, the actions we took in Iraq were sound, _even though they cost lives_. **non sequitor** I am not arguing about the overall validity of the invasion. Simply the fact that it was based on lies. Don’t give me this mistaken bullshit. The intel was **not** clear, and he said it was. That is a lie. > [@Bricker](#): > > Listen: Roosevelt’s decision to get us involved in WWII cost over a hundred thousand dead Americans. But it was the right decision, even though it lead to deaths. Great job avoiding the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/110 "2004-11-06T01:07:46Z")
> [@TWOTfan](#): > > BTW, Bush has increased his lead to over 4,668,000 and 52-47% As it happens, that statement is [wrong](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/111 "2004-11-06T01:12:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Since this is the pit… > Fuck you asshole. > I’m not a democrat, and I hold truth as one of my highest virtues. > Fuck you. Indeed. Well, Kerry’s lies in his ads stretch back months. PLease point me to ONE post of yours before today that condemns those lies, and I will apologize for having misjudged you and abjectly ask for your forgiveness. > [@](#): > > Not nearly as large a percentage. > Nor do I see how pointing out that the other guy’s support was fucked changes the fact that yours was. How do you know what the percentage was? That study focused on Bush voters’ perceptions. Where was the study that asked people if Kerry favored gay marriage, if he wanted “Under God” in the pledge or not, and if he planned to cut or raise taxes, and on whom? Without that, you cannot possibly claim that Bush supporters were more ignorant of their candidate’s positions. > [@](#): > > Your **point?** > Or are we back at recess in second grade? > “But but but… he did it first!” > I don’t care **who** lied. It is wrong, it is immoral, and it should be fought. > Pointing out how the other side lied is beneath you and doesn’t prove a goddamn thing about your side. Unfortunately, political ads that sought to be absolutely neutral and convey the good, the bad, and the ugly about their preferred candidate might be nice, but they are not going to happen. I’m not proud of how my side distorted Kerry’s voting record. But I understand the necessity to counter Kerry’s distortion of my side’s Social Security plans. And I’m sure someone over on the Kerry side is saying, “Well, we had to lie about Bush’s Social Security plans, to counter their lies about US!” Find me a presidential campaign that consisted of nothing but truthful, unvarnished commentary about the issues. When has it happened? No - I’m not proud of it. But it’s the reality of how these things work. Too tought for you? Move to Pitcairn Island. Again: **I am embarrased and ashamed that my party used such dishonest and underhanded tactics.** But I recognize it as a regrettable necessity because the OTHER party uses dishonest and underhanded tactics, too. And unilatera disarmament here seems like a really naive idea. > [@](#): > > I am not arguing about the overall validity of the invasion. > Simply the fact that it was based on lies. > Don’t give me this mistaken bullshit. > The intel was **not** clear, and he said it was. > That is a lie. No, it was an error. The UK had the same intel we did; they reached the same conclusion. You may say that Bush intimidated the CIA analysts – did he intimidate the guys at MI6, too? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/112 "2004-11-06T01:16:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I contend that although Bush was mistaken on the presence of WMD, the actions we took in Iraq were sound, _even though they cost lives_. Cost lives? Try _costing_ lives. Unless were done over there and someone forgot to me. > [@](#): > > Listen: Roosevelt’s decision to get us involved in WWII cost over a hundred thousand dead Americans. But it was the right decision, even though it lead to deaths. How the hell do we know it’s the right decision? Because a big ass war we were dragged into decades ago turned out ok? Iraq ain’t over yet, so save your celebrations. By the way, it ain’t going to well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/113 "2004-11-06T01:18:52Z")
Roosevelt didn’t decide. Germany declared war on the US following Pearl Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/114 "2004-11-06T01:20:11Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > How the hell do we know it’s the right decision? Because a big ass war we were dragged into decades ago turned out ok? Iraq ain’t over yet, so save your celebrations. By the way, it ain’t going to well. I don’t understand your point at all. I was rebutting the argument that because it cost lives, the decision was bad, by pointing out that not every decision that costs lives is bad. Now you’re asking how we know it’s the right decision. The removal of a murderous dictator from power seems like an obvious good. The establishment of a democracy in the Middle East other than Israel seems like an obvious good. That’s how we know it’s a good decision. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/115 "2004-11-06T01:20:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it was an error. The UK had the same intel we did; they reached the same conclusion. You may say that Bush intimidated the CIA analysts – did he intimidate the guys at MI6, too? I don’t know, I don’t care. There were people that we’re not convinced of the evidence, and they turned out to be right. That’s _what’s_ important. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/116 "2004-11-06T01:22:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Roosevelt didn’t decide. Germany declared war on the US following Pearl Harbor. Sure. Roosevelt could have asked Congress only to declare war on Japan, and signalled Hitler his intention to remain out of Europe. He could have surrendered immeidately. That would have avoided the loss of American soldiers. It would have been a bad idea, though. Except, perhaps, to the “violence never solves anything” and “war is always bad” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/117 "2004-11-06T01:24:15Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I don’t know, I don’t care. There were people that we’re not convinced of the evidence, and they turned out to be right. That’s _what’s_ important. Yes, they did turn out to be right. But that doesn’t make Bush a liar, does it? It makes him wrong – mistaken. If no one else was convinced by the evidence, then sure – you’ve got a good case to say that Bush lied. But if Bush AND OTHERS were convinced, then it becomes obvious that reasonable people could make the same assumption he did. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/118 "2004-11-06T01:25:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t understand your point at all. I was rebutting the argument that because it cost lives, the decision was bad, by pointing out that not every decision that costs lives is bad. Actually I think I bungled what I was saying, forget that part. Keep in mind that not every decision that costs lives is good either. > [@](#): > > Now you’re asking how we know it’s the right decision. The removal of a murderous dictator from power seems like an obvious good. The establishment of a democracy in the Middle East other than Israel seems like an obvious good. That’s how we know it’s a good decision. Has that democracy been established yet? As far as removing Saddam, it may have been a good move, or it may have cleared room for someone even worse. You may want to hold off on the rosy scenarios, because right now things ain’t looking to good. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/119 "2004-11-06T01:27:55Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Actually I think I bungled what I was saying, forget that part. Keep in mind that not every decision that costs lives is good either. UMMMMM… ya think so? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/120 "2004-11-06T01:28:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, they did turn out to be right. But that doesn’t make Bush a liar, does it? It makes him wrong – mistaken. If no one else was convinced by the evidence, then sure – you’ve got a good case to say that Bush lied. But if Bush AND OTHERS were convinced, then it becomes obvious that reasonable people could make the same assumption he did. He either lied or was mistaken, to be honest I could care less which. The consequences and the shithole we’re in because of his incompetence are very real. I never understand that point of view. Them: “He didn’t lie, he was mistaken!” Me: “alright so he’s a fucking moron, not an asshole, what’s your point?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=7)