# Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089 "2004-11-05T00:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/121 "2004-11-06T01:30:24Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > UMMMMM… ya think so? Anything else to add or nipping at my ankles like a bitch as usual? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/122 "2004-11-06T01:30:19Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Actually I think I bungled what I was saying, forget that part. Keep in mind that not every decision that costs lives is good either. Of course - no one is saying that. You were the one that started us down the “costs lives = bad” inference, not I. Certainly “costing lives” is not a _sine qua non_ of a good decision or a bad one. Obviously, if lives are at stake, then the stakes are very high – but there are some things worth sending our soldiers to die for. > [@](#): > > Has that democracy been established yet? As far as removing Saddam, it may have been a good move, or it may have cleared room for someone even worse. You may want to hold off on the rosy scenarios, because right now things ain’t looking to good. Well, again I agree. I’m not calling the Iraq campaign an unqualified success yet, because it’s not done. But I’m not calling it an abject failure either, _because it’s not done._ Are we agreed? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/123 "2004-11-06T01:31:32Z")
**Bricker** , for your own edification, read Colin Powells presentation to the UN. That was our admins prime case, they said it all. Now, memory is a bit thin, but so far as I recall, not one…not _one_!..of the accusations Colin Powell leveled on that occassion proved to be true. Not even the Mobile Nuclear Anthrax Trailers of Death. Not the Intercontinental Drones of Doom. None of it. Not one fucking word. Didn’t he catch even a _hint_ when his African uranium crap turned out to be…crap? Didn’t he have even a moment of doubt when the inspectors asked for locations to search, we gave it to them and they found diddly squat? When the alulminum tube fiasco proved groundless, he still didn’t have the least _inkling_ of doubt? Wouldn’t you? Before you send other peoples kids off to kill and die, wouldn’t you? I am sure you would. At the very least, I wouldn’t presume to insult you by suggesting otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/124 "2004-11-06T01:34:27Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > He either lied or was mistaken, to be honest I could care less which. The consequences and the shithole we’re in because of his incompetence are very real. > > I never understand that point of view. > > Them: “He didn’t lie, he was mistaken!” > Me: “alright so he’s a fucking moron, not an asshole, what’s your point?” Well, since we’re in a thread entitled “ **Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did** ,” I would gently suggest to you that there is some relevance to that determination - don’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/125 "2004-11-06T01:37:01Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Anything else to add or nipping at my ankles like a bitch as usual? I’m sorry. I meant no real offense. It’s just that the sentiment “Remember, killing people is not **always** good” was something I couldn’t resist. It is kind of obvious, isn’t it? No hard feelings? Please? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/126 "2004-11-06T01:37:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course - no one is saying that. You were the one that started us down the “costs lives = bad” inference, not I. Certainly “costing lives” is not a _sine qua non_ of a good decision or a bad one. Obviously, if lives are at stake, then the stakes are very high – but there are some things worth sending our soldiers to die for. I agree with this. I think the individual conflict has to be measured on it’s own merits. > [@](#): > > Well, again I agree. I’m not calling the Iraq campaign an unqualified success yet, because it’s not done. But I’m not calling it an abject failure either, _because it’s not done._ Are we agreed? Yep we’re agreed. It’s not a failure, but things aren’t looking too good these days. There will be a civil war as soon as we pull out as well. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/127 "2004-11-06T01:37:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed. Well, Kerry’s lies in his ads stretch back months. PLease point me to ONE post of yours before today that condemns those lies, and I will apologize for having misjudged you and abjectly ask for your forgiveness. 1. I do not watch telivision on anything resembling a regular basis. I don’t know what ads you’re talking about. 2. If I was aware of them, I would have condemned them. 3. Kerry was not elected, as such, I don’t feel an obligation to spend nearly as much time going over his failings. Had he won, I’d hold his feet to the fire too. 4. And I will say it now, in bold **To the degree that the Kerry campaign used lies, they are scum** > [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know what the percentage was? That study focused on Bush voters’ perceptions. Where was the study that asked people if Kerry favored gay marriage, if he wanted “Under God” in the pledge or not, and if he planned to cut or raise taxes, and on whom? Without that, you cannot possibly claim that Bush supporters were more ignorant of their candidate’s positions. Fair enough, I will semantically mince my earlier statement: On the issues covered, which were major, Bush supporters were far more clueless than Kerry supporters. Perhaps there were other issues on which Kerry supporters were equally clueless, or even more clueless. But I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, and you know about the fallacy of proving the negative I’m sure. > [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, political ads that sought to be absolutely neutral and convey the good, the bad, and the ugly about their preferred candidate might be nice, but they are not going to happen. I’m not proud of how my side distorted Kerry’s voting record. But I understand the necessity to counter Kerry’s distortion of my side’s Social Security plans. I’m not going to get into who lied first… I just am saddened that you are here supporting lying as a necessary facet of politics. Fear and loathing… is this what our nation has become? The pride of Jefferson and Franklin? A den of liars? > [@Bricker](#): > > And I’m sure someone over on the Kerry side is saying, “Well, we had to lie about Bush’s Social Security plans, to counter their lies about US!” Maybe. And they too will be morally wrong. > [@Bricker](#): > > Find me a presidential campaign that consisted of nothing but truthful, unvarnished commentary about the issues. When has it happened? I don’t know that it ever has, does that mean we should accept it? > [@Bricker](#): > > No - I’m not proud of it. But it’s the reality of how these things work. Too tought for you? Move to Pitcairn Island. Nope. I love my country with all my heart. I’m staying, fighting, slogging it out, and we’ll see. > [@Bricker](#): > > Again: **I am embarrased and ashamed that my party used such dishonest and underhanded tactics.** Thank you! (or are those thanks premature?) > [@Bricker](#): > > But I recognize it as a regrettable necessity because the OTHER party uses dishonest and underhanded tactics, too. And unilatera disarmament here seems like a really naive idea. Oh, no, wait… You’re embarrased and ashamed in rhetoric, but you support their actions in practice… How far does that shame actually translate then? Are you really embarrased and ashamed if you support their actions? > [@Bricker](#): > > No, it was an error. The UK had the same intel we did; they reached the same conclusion. You may say that Bush intimidated the CIA analysts – did he intimidate the guys at MI6, too? The conclusion we reached was that there was no clear evidence. Am I to assume you’re suggestiong MI6 had the same conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/128 "2004-11-06T01:37:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Bricker** , for your own edification, read Colin Powells presentation to the UN. That was our admins prime case, they said it all. Now, memory is a bit thin, but so far as I recall, not one…not _one_!..of the accusations Colin Powell leveled on that occassion proved to be true. Not even the Mobile Nuclear Anthrax Trailers of Death. Not the Intercontinental Drones of Doom. None of it. Not one fucking word. > > Didn’t he catch even a _hint_ when his African uranium crap turned out to be…crap? Didn’t he have even a moment of doubt when the inspectors asked for locations to search, we gave it to them and they found diddly squat? When the alulminum tube fiasco proved groundless, he still didn’t have the least _inkling_ of doubt? > > Wouldn’t you? Before you send other peoples kids off to kill and die, wouldn’t you? I am sure you would. At the very least, I wouldn’t presume to insult you by suggesting otherwise. Would you care to put a timeline by these various events, so we can see how they fit into the invasion of Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/129 "2004-11-06T01:39:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m sorry. I meant no real offense. It’s just that the sentiment “Remember, killing people is not **always** good” was something I couldn’t resist. > > It is kind of obvious, isn’t it? > > No hard feelings? Please? No hard feelings. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/130 "2004-11-06T01:42:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, since we’re in a thread entitled “ **Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did** ,” I would gently suggest to you that there is some relevance to that determination - don’t you agree? Yes I agree, but I’m not letting you off the hook with regards to my point. He’s either a liar or incompetent. Neither of these is a quality I want in a CIC ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/131 "2004-11-06T01:56:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would you care to put a timeline by these various events, so we can see how they fit into the invasion of Iraq? But you already know all this. And wouldn’t the salient fact be that they _preceded_ the invasion? Whether by an hour or a year what difference does it make? Just a big oopsy, huh? Drat the luck, swing and a miss. Ah, heck, a thousand of our kids, God alone knows how many of thiers, 200 billion dollars and counting. Give the guy a do-over, he means well, and he’s getting the hang of this “President” stuff! He’ll do much better this time! Kind of reminds me of JFK, and that speech he gave apologizing for the failures of the Bay of Pigs, accepting the responsibility. Was GeeDubya’s speech as good as that? I don’t recall, can you cite it for me? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/132 "2004-11-06T01:58:30Z")
**FinnAgain** wrote > [@](#): > > I’m not a democrat, and I hold truth as one of my highest virtues. > (…) > I don’t care who lied. It is wrong, it is immoral, and it should be fought. I guess I thought we were having a different discussion. I thought we were talking about Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry, and who would be the better President, and whether one side told substantially more lies than the other side. But I guess we’re not. We’re talking about pure truth, and whether every statement ever uttered by a politician was fact. Friend, I didn’t need you to tell me that politicians lie. But I guess I don’t get what your real point is. Some here have stated that Mr. Bush should be removed because of his lies. You seem to be saying that all politicians should be removed. or Nader should hold a post. or something, honestly, I don’t know what your point is. And shame, I actually read several of your cites, and was ready to counter about how Mr. Kerry was no better. But such as it is. When the Republicans talked about the bible being banned, that was bad. And when the Democrats talked about a Draft in the works, well that was bad too. For every Republican claim, there’s a Democrat claim of Social Security cuts, or encouragement of off-shoring, or how about that special olympics thing saying of Bush “even if you win, you’re still retarded”? There’s plenty of wickedness in this game, and I too am against it. But for ninnies like our OP and her clan to claim that only the Republicans lied, and this was the sole reason for their win, well, that’s just silly. and arrogant. and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/133 "2004-11-06T02:24:45Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > I guess I thought we were having a different discussion. I thought we were talking about Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry, and who would be the better President, and whether one side told substantially more lies than the other side. I am unaware that was the discussion. Could’ve sworn that the OP is about how the Bush campaign ran on deception (which ever **bricker** admits) Indeed, I could’ve sworn that when confronted with one of my posts on Bush’s lies, you suggested that I was wrong. > [@you](#): > > Blah blah blah. Saying it’s fact, doesn’t make it true, and neither does bolding it. If you print it in 36pt font, it still won’t be true. > [@you again](#): > > And shame, I actually read several of your cites, and was ready to counter about how Mr. Kerry was no better. But such as it is. So, which is it? Is it untrue that Bush’s campaign was full of lies, or is it true and Kerry did it too? Or are you just trying to argue both sides? > [@Bill H.](#): > > But I guess we’re not. We’re talking about pure truth, and whether every statement ever uttered by a politician was fact. We are? Mind quoting where I said that? > [@Bill H.](#): > > Friend, I didn’t need you to tell me that politicians lie. But I guess I don’t get what your real point is. Some here have stated that Mr. Bush should be removed because of his lies. You seem to be saying that all politicians should be removed. or Nader should hold a post. or something, honestly, I don’t know what your point is. Has the country really fallen that far? That folks can’t grok the simple point that winning a campaign based on fear and lies is wrong? Again, quote me where I say that all politicians should be removed, or that I support Nader. Is it really so hard to find my point? Lying. Is. Wrong. Lying in a political campaign in order to get elected is also wrong. > [@Bill H.](#): > > When the Republicans talked about the bible being banned, that was bad. And when the Democrats talked about a Draft in the works, well that was bad too. For every Republican claim, there’s a Democrat claim of Social Security cuts, or encouragement of off-shoring, or how about that special olympics thing saying of Bush “even if you win, you’re still retarded”? Actually, there is a good bit of evidence that a draft is at least possible. Selective service has been ramping up, but we don’t need to debate that here unless you really want. The point is, lying is wrong. Politicians should be elected based on what they’ll actually do, have actually done, and who they actually are. Otherwise we are electing illusions and distortions, and we deserve far better. Is this really so radical? > [@Bill H.](#): > > There’s plenty of wickedness in this game, and I too am against it. But for ninnies like our OP and her clan to claim that only the Republicans lied, and this was the sole reason for their win, well, that’s just silly. and arrogant. and wrong. No, it’s not silly, not arrogant, and not wrong. It is probably not the sole reason, but it may very well be. Since such a large percentage of republican voters voted out of ignorance, it is only logical to assume that their votes helped win the election, and thus, votes cast out of ignorance won the election. QED. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/134 "2004-11-06T02:31:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Politicians should be elected based on what they’ll actually do, have actually done, and who they actually are. Otherwise we are electing illusions and distortions, and we deserve far better. I’m not convinced we deserve better. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/135 "2004-11-06T02:32:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. So did the Democrats. [Cite](http://factcheck.org/article298.html)for the ad Kerry ran saying Bush had a secret plan to privatize Social Security after the election and cut benefits 30-45%, knowing all along Bush had pledged not to cut benefits and had made no secret of his intent to move towards privatization. > > So if Kerry had won, I assume you’d be here, outraged, that the Democrats won by telling LIES. . Nope. I’m here, outraged because the Democrats lost by telling the TRUTH. > **[Those Who Voted for Bush May Be In for a Big Surprise](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-nov-05-oe-chait5-story.html)** > > Concerns closer to his heart could trump all that talk about values. "On Social Security, Bush was just as evasive. Here, again, the tiny minority of people who closely follow this understood his code words. He wants to divert Social Security taxes into private accounts. Because those taxes pay for the benefits of current retirees, his plan would require cutting benefits or driving the national debt even higher. Bush, of course, went to great pains to distance himself from these unpleasant facts. In 2001, he appointed a commission that proposed three plans to partly privatize Social Security, but he declined to embrace the panel’s findings. A few weeks before the election, a New York Times Magazine story reported that Bush told GOP donors he planned to push privatization after the election. John Kerry’s campaign circulated a nonpartisan study showing what the benefit cuts in one of the commission’s plans would entail. Bush’s spokesman dismissed the charge that he favored privatization or benefit-cutting as a “false, baseless attack.” Here’s what Bush said Thursday: “I had asked [Daniel Patrick Moynihan], prior to his passing, to chair a committee of notable Americans to come up with some ideas on Social Security, and they did so. And it’s a good place for members of Congress to start.” Got that? Last week, if you had described Bush as advocating the commission’s plans, he would have denounced you for promoting a hysterical lie. Now they are at the top of the list of things he’s saying he was elected specifically to enact." If you go to the White house website and read the transcript just to make sure you there was no mistake, you see… > **[Briefing Room | The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/)** " And so the answer to your second question is, we’ll start on Social Security now. We’ll start bringing together those in Congress who agree with my assessment that we need to work together. We’ve got a good blueprint, a good go-by. You mentioned Senator Moynihan. I had asked him prior to his – to his passing, to chair a committee of notable Americans to come up with some ideas on Social Security. And they did so. And it’s a good place for members of Congress to start. The President must have the will to take on the issue – not only in the campaign, but now that I’m elected. And this will – reforming Social Security will be a priority of my administration." That Mr. Chiat was absolutely correct. Because if we go to your cite that supposedly reveals how Kerry lied, they say this exactly: “Furthermore, Bush hasn’t proposed any specific plan as yet. The “cut” the ad refers to is an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office of the effect of holding starting benefit levels at current levels adjusted only for inflation, rather than pushing them up each year in line with wages as has been done since 1977. For persons born in this decade – most of whom haven’t yet been born – the CBO figured starting benefits at retirement could be as much as 45% less than under the current formula. Furthermore, doing away with wage-indexing could be done with or without private accounts. It was just one feature of one of three “model” plans put forth by a bipartisan commission Bush set up. Bush hasn’t endorsed any of the model plans” George Bush and his administration are lying, manipulative scum that make all the administrations they went before them, even Nixon’s, look positively angelic. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/136 "2004-11-06T02:39:50Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’m not convinced we deserve better. Really? How sad… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/137 "2004-11-06T02:56:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Really? > How sad… Well actually that’s not true. Us Dems deserve better. 😛 D&R ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/138 "2004-11-06T03:02:50Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Yes I agree, but I’m not letting you off the hook with regards to my point. > > He’s either a liar or incompetent. Neither of these is a quality I want in a CIC Yes, but IN THIS THREAD, we are discussing the claim that lies won the election. Thank you for your agreement, and I’ll be happy to discuss the incompetence claim with you in another thread. But we’ve eliminated the certainty of “lies,” with you. Now, on to the next person. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/139 "2004-11-06T03:03:03Z")
Y’all remember that \*Star Trek \* episode where the the 2 guys, who looked exactly alike but one was matter and the other anti-matter or something like that, and they ended up trapped in a constant battle with each other that would last until time itself stopped… **Stoid** , I’m upset about this too. But I’m gonna stay out of this thing for two reasons. 1. No good can from it at this time because, as much as we don’t like it, Bush has the job for the next 4 years, which makes this particular battle pointless, and 2. I value my sanity and my blood pressure. So, for your own piece of mind, I think you should back off this, _just for a while_, before you and\*\* Bill H\*\* are trapped in another plane of existence, at each other’s throats for all eternity…\*\*Finnagain \*\* and **Bricker** might be there, too. ---
**Author:** ![SiouxChief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SiouxChief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiouxChief)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/140 "2004-11-06T03:04:19Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I just wish I didn’t feel that my country has turned on me. It hurts profoundly to know that millions of Americans hate me and mine so much that they enacted laws targeted at me. You’re reading too much into it. I don’t hate you, and no-one I know does either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=8)