# Repub Ideas did NOT win, LIES did **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089 "2004-11-05T00:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/141 "2004-11-06T03:07:09Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Well actually that’s not true. Us Dems deserve better. 😛 > > D&R Being that I’m not a democrat, I hope you’d include me in the list of those who deserve better. Heck, I include almost all republicans. Although it does disturb me, greatly, to see the pattern repeated… **Bill** is a perfect example. Starts out by saying that it’s a lie that Bush lied, is corrupt, etc… and then goes on to totally change his tune and say “Well, Kerry did it too!” That kind of thinking scares me. Hell… I mean… if you can accept that your candiate is a liar _then how do you know they were telling you the truth?_ How can you even support them, knowing that any promise they make, any statement, is suspect? I couldn’t live like that, and I certainly couldn’t get behind a politician like that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/142 "2004-11-06T03:08:26Z")
Yeah, really, **gobear** they don’t hate you, they just hate what you are. Big difference. (Not implying any bigotry in **Cheif’s** post, I’m sure he’s entirely sincere…) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/143 "2004-11-06T03:13:35Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > 1. No good can from it at this time because, as much as we don’t like it, Bush has the job for the next 4 years, which makes this particular battle pointless, and I don’t see how this is a valid point. It upset me just as much over the last four years when people told me not to discuss bush becuase the election wasn’t uppon us yet. Bush has the job for the next four years, and I indend, as a citizen, to be ruthless in my apraisal of him. > [@spooje](#): > > … trapped in another plane of existence, at each other’s throats for all eternity…\*\*Finnagain \*\* and **Bricker** might be there, too. Another plane of existence? Is that anything like the Fantom Zone? Cuz I don’t know where Supergirl is… Seriously though, what on earth is so bad about having a factual discussion about the president? Are we all supposed to suspend our critical judgement because an election is over? Not that I don’t respect your desire to bow out. I just wonder why you don’t respect my desire to not bow out. ---
**Author:** ![SiouxChief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SiouxChief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiouxChief)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/144 "2004-11-06T03:19:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > such a large percentage of republican voters voted out of ignorance That’s one way to mend a fence. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/145 "2004-11-06T03:20:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But we’ve eliminated the certainty of “lies,” with you. Now, on to the next person. > [@bricker](#): > > I just showed that Kerry used the same tactics. Well, which is it? Did Kerry and Bush lie, or did they not? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/146 "2004-11-06T03:22:08Z")
> [@SiouxChief](#): > > That’s one way to mend a fence. I’m sorry, would it help to mend some fences if I used an ice cream scoop to remove some excess grey matter I have too? We have already proven in this thread, several times, that a large portion of republican voters voted out of ignorance and didn’t know what their own candidate stood for. Why on earth is this a taboo subject? Are we fighting ignorance or embracing it? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/147 "2004-11-06T03:25:47Z")
> [@SiouxChief](#): > > That’s one way to mend a fence. ARGH! For god’s sake…did you read the whole thread? Did you read the data from PIPA??? WHO WERE THOSE PEOPLE? Jesus christ. Tell me, how does ignoring the fact twisting and outright lying and the reality that millions of people swallow it help anything? What fence do you hope to mend by coddling ignorance, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/148 "2004-11-06T03:26:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, which is it? > > Did Kerry and Bush lie, or did they not? I know, I know! Bush lied, Kerry didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![SiouxChief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SiouxChief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiouxChief)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/149 "2004-11-06T03:28:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yeah, really, **gobear** they don’t hate you, they just hate what you are. Big difference. > > (Not implying any bigotry in **Cheif’s** post, I’m sure he’s entirely sincere…) I am, in fact, completely sincere. There was absolutely no hatred involved in any of my votes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/150 "2004-11-06T03:30:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Nope. I’m here, outraged because the Democrats lost by telling the TRUTH. > > [http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-chait5nov05,1,2283812.column](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-chait5nov05,1,2283812.column) > > "On Social Security, Bush was just as evasive. Here, again, the tiny minority of people who closely follow this understood his code words. He wants to divert Social Security taxes into private accounts. Because those taxes pay for the benefits of current retirees, his plan would require cutting benefits or driving the national debt even higher. OK - let’s follow this closely. I said that Kerry lied. He claimed Bush had a secret plan to privitize Social Security and cut benefits by 30-45%, and I said the plan to privatize was NOT secret, that Bush was open about it, and that he had pleged NOT to cut benefits. You say Kerry told the truth about that. Let’s see how how prove this. > [@](#): > > Bush, of course, went to great pains to distance himself from these unpleasant facts. In 2001, he appointed a commission that proposed three plans to partly privatize Social Security, but he declined to embrace the panel’s findings. What relevance does this have to any fact under dispute? He did not reject the panel’s findings. He did not approve the panel’s findings. He took no action whatsoever on the panel’s findings. > [@](#): > > A few weeks before the election, a New York Times Magazine story reported that Bush told GOP donors he planned to push privatization after the election. Yes, he did, thus proving, as I said, that the plan was not secret. John Kerry said the plan was secret. I said it wasn’t secret, and now you’ve just said it wasn’t secret either. So if John Kerry said it was secret, he lied. > [@](#): > > John Kerry’s campaign circulated a nonpartisan study showing what the benefit cuts in one of the commission’s plans would entail. But that study did not address the point you made above: that this could be paid for without cutting benefits by raising the deficit. Bush’s plan was not to cut benefits, and John Kerry knew this. The study did not address how Bush actually planned to pay for it; it assumed, falsely, that he’d pay for it within Social Security. > [@](#): > > Bush’s spokesman dismissed the charge that he favored privatization or benefit-cutting as a “false, baseless attack.” No. That never happened. Bush’s spokesman dismissed the benefits-cutting claim as false and baseless, because it was. The privatization was not dismissed, because it was true, and not secret. > [@](#): > > Here’s what Bush said Thursday: “I had asked [Daniel Patrick Moynihan], prior to his passing, to chair a committee of notable Americans to come up with some ideas on Social Security, and they did so. And it’s a good place for members of Congress to start.” So Bush now is endorsing the findings of the commission he earlier had no comment on. But that’s not a lie, and in any event, this discussion is about what Kerry said. Kerry said nothing about the commission. > [@](#): > > Got that? Last week, if you had described Bush as advocating the commission’s plans, he would have denounced you for promoting a hysterical lie. Now they are at the top of the list of things he’s saying he was elected specifically to enact." No. Last week, if you had described Bush as advocating the commission’s plans, he would have said he intends to privatize, but not cut benefits. This week, he intends to privatize, but not cut benefits. Now what do you have to say? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/151 "2004-11-06T03:31:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Many people who were uninformed/unintelligent **did** vote for Bush. This is simply a fact. Again, sorry if it disturbs you, but it’s the truth. Okay, I’ll give you that. Many uninformed/unintelligent people also voted for Kerry. “Why are you voting for Kerry?” “Because he’s not Bush!” “What is it about Bush that you don’t like?” “He’s just got that evil, stupid smirk!” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/152 "2004-11-06T03:33:49Z")
I don’t mind the evil, stupid smirk. Except when he’s telling me lies. Hmmm, come to think of it, you’ve got a point… ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/153 "2004-11-06T03:35:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not that I don’t respect your desire to bow out. > I just wonder why you don’t respect my desire to not bow out. Hey, I respect your position. And I certainly respect your passion. But what do you hope to achieve? Do expect to change their minds? Do you expect them to see the error of their ways? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/154 "2004-11-06T03:36:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Find me a presidential campaign that consisted of nothing but truthful, unvarnished commentary about the issues. When has it happened? > > I don’t know that it ever has, does that mean we should accept it? > ? OK. Given your evident shock and disgust at the revelation that both Kery and Bush lied in this campaign, please advise me: who should I have voted for? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/155 "2004-11-06T03:54:15Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Okay, I’ll give you that. Many uninformed/unintelligent people also voted for Kerry. > > “Why are you voting for Kerry?” > “Because he’s not Bush!” > “What is it about Bush that you don’t like?” > “He’s just got that evil, stupid smirk!” Well… strictly speaking, that isn’t uninformed. Kerry certaintly was not Bush ~laughter~ If their decision was based on such skimpy support, then yes, they too were stupid. I would, however, submit that voting for Kerry because you don’t like Bush is nowhere near as stupid and uninformed as voting for Bush because you think that he holds positions which he clearly does not. **spooje** : Thank you very much, I didn’t intend to start a fight and I appreciate your level-headed approach. Truth be told, I don’t know what exactly I plan on accomplishing. I’m nowhere near as pragmatic as **gobear** To me truth, honor, integrity are their own values and their own rewards. If I can convince even one person through the exercise of reason and fact, I’d consider that a good day. But for right now, I’m just ranting under the stars. **bricker** way to totally avoid your own contradictions. > [@bricker](#): > > …both Kery and Bush lied in this campaign > [@bricker](#): > > But we’ve eliminated the certainty of “lies,” with you. Now, on to the next person. In this thread you’ve both admitted that Bush lied (saying it was okay, since Kerry did too) and then tried to argue that Bush didn’t lie. Doesn’t that kind of dishonesty, I don’t know… make it hard to sleep at night? Why is it so hard to keep to a position? (why do you keep flip-flopping?) Why not just say “Yes, my candidate is a liar and a deciever, but I support that, becuase it’s how we won.” You essentially said as much in a post, why are you backing away from your own stance? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/156 "2004-11-06T04:24:46Z")
I see it now, as through a glass, darkly. I remember now, why this all feels like _deja vu_. Its going to be Nixon, all over again. A fiercely divided nation, a stupid and unjustifiable war. The fierce patriots, blinded by pain, insisting, demanding, that any dissent is treason, that all must march in step. And we who dissent, unable to gaze upon our own flag without mixed feelings. And like Nixon, the lies hidden away till after the election will surface, like the poisoned mud at the bottom of a polluted pond. The defenders will deny the truth, even as it stares them in the face like a betrayed lover. the dissenters will flinch every time another one surfaces, to the shame of our beloved country. There is only one word. Heartsick. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/157 "2004-11-06T17:16:30Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I know, I know! > > Bush lied, Kerry didn’t. Wow. Just…wow. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/158 "2004-11-06T17:49:49Z")
Yeah, wow. What’s the death count due to Kerry’s lies, **LA**? How many of our best and brightest are going to die today because of Kerry’s lies? He’s a politician, _ergo_ he lies. We don’t get the option of electing secular saints, no virgin gets elected Queen of the Whores. We only get to pick the slattern with the lesser number of open, running sores and apparent STD’s. But hey, you got your way! Congratulations. Go to the news pages, bask in your triumph. Count the flag draped boxes coming back. How many, do you think, before this sympony of horrors is over? 2,000? 5,000? 10,000? More? Do you feel the first inklings of doubt creeping in yet? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/159 "2004-11-06T20:42:23Z")
**elucidator** : I am shocked, just shocked! The Glorious Leader tells us that Iraq is part of the War On Terror™ and that it had WMD and was a threat to us and that Sadaam was a very not-nice-person (although Rumsfeld seemed to like him just fine at their little tea party…) and that there were connections to Al Queda and that if you don’t support him, you’re obviously French. I mean, honestly… do you not trust the Glorious Leader? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089/160 "2004-11-06T21:22:46Z")
What do I have to say, Bricker? I have to say: are you going to say here and now that you will apologize and admit error when Bush supports a benefit-cutting plan? Hmmm? Cuz I see it one way now, and you see it another, and the final reality has yet to be shown. But I feel pretty damn sure its going to come down the way I see it. Let us remember this thread when that day comes. “Those who vote decide nothing, those who COUNT the votes decide everything.” - Stalin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/repub-ideas-did-not-win-lies-did/273089.md?page=9)