# Republican Elector in West Virginia says he might not vote for Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271 "2004-09-13T17:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/1 "2004-09-13T17:15:42Z")
Richie Robb, mayor of South Charleston, West Virginia, is one of the five Republican electors who have been chosen to represent WV in the Electoral College if Bush wins the state’s popular vote in November. But he says he might refuse to vote for Bush. From the _Charleston Daily Mail,_ September 8, 2004 ([http://www.dailymail.com/news/News/2004090817/](http://www.dailymail.com/news/News/2004090817/)): > [@](#): > > Robb, long known as a maverick Republican, said he is considering using his position as one of the state’s five Republican electors to protest what he believes are misguided policies of the current administration. > > “It’s not likely that I would vote for Kerry,” Robb said. “But I’m looking at what my options are when it comes time to cast my vote.” > > \ > > There is no provision in the West Virginia code that controls what an elector does at the Electoral College or provides any punishment for faithless electors. > > There have been eight electors in American history who have chosen to go against the popular vote in their home states, including Margarette Leach of Huntington, who declined to vote for Michael Dukakis in 1988, even though Dukakis carried West Virginia. > > Leach cast her presidential vote for Dukakis’ running mate, Lloyd Bentsen instead. In 2000, one of the electors from the District of Columbia withheld her vote altogether in protest of the district’s lack of statehood. > > Robb said he is considering either voting for a third candidate or withholding his vote altogether. > > \ > > Robb’s complaints about Bush center on what the mayor believes was a misguided policy on Iraq and the swelling budget deficit. > > “I only started to really rethink my position seriously after the accusations about Kerry’s service in Vietnam, though,” Robb said. “I served in Vietnam, and I think Bush’s surrogates, and I think really the Bush campaign, went beyond the line with those ads.” This points up with one of the little anomalies in our Electoral College system: We tend to forget this, but when we cast a vote for president, we actually are voting for a slate of partisan electors who are competing for the right to represent our state in the EC. Even the minor-party candidates, if they get on the ballot at all, have a slate of electors picked out and filed withe the state’s secretary of state. And once elected, these electors, whose names most people don’t even know, are autonomous (if temporary) constitutional officers in their own right. Any elector might turn out to be a “faithless elector.” It all depends on how careful the state’s party organization is in choosing them. Can anything be done about this? Is this yet another reason why the Electoral College is an outmoded system? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/2 "2004-09-13T17:51:43Z")
BTW: According to [http://www.electoral-vote.com](http://www.electoral-vote.com), West Virginia is a “Weak Bush” state: The most recent poll there, done by Zogby on September 3, shows 40% support for Kerry, 49% for Bush, 2% for Nader. So this is not purely an academic question – there is a better than even chance that Bush will win the WV popular vote, and Robb will be sent to join the EC in Washington (or wherever it meets), and if things are really close, who knows, his vote might be decisive. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/3 "2004-09-13T17:52:34Z")
I really would hate it if Bush won this November, and I’ll confess my initial gut-level reaction to hearing this was a cheer. But really it’s a disenfranchisement. It’s been done before, and recently at that (I’m pretty sure a Dukakis elector voted for Lloyd Bentsen in 1998, for instance), but never in such a way as to modify the outcome of the election. They should pass a national law requiring the states to have a non-arbitrary and formulaic way of determining how its electoral votes will be cast, and binding the electors to voting in that fashion. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/4 "2004-09-13T17:58:49Z")
Uhh, make that 1988. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/5 "2004-09-13T18:07:47Z")
Is it too late for the republican party organization in West Virginia to boot him out and replace him with a tame party apparatchik? I thought elector positions were invariably given to boring party servants to avoid this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/6 "2004-09-13T18:08:03Z")
I want Kerry to win. However, if Bush legally wins West Viriginia, he should get all the electoral votes from that state. The DC delegate who refused to vote for Gore acted dishonorably in my opinion. That 2000 election was so goofy and confusing that all the Gore votes should have been cast for Gore. When the electoral college met in December, there was no 100% guarantee that Florida’s votes would not survive the challenge in the House of Represenatives. The elector who voted Bentsen/Dukakis didn’t accomplish anything. I do remember watching the votes being counted and seeing a surprised look on George H.W. Bush’s and the House clerk. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/7 "2004-09-13T18:12:36Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > They should pass a national law requiring the states to have a non-arbitrary and formulaic way of determining how its electoral votes will be cast, and binding the electors to voting in that fashion. But that would be unconstitutional. From the U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 1 (with comments from the Encarta – [http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia\_761569008\_3\_\_\_\_69/Constitution\_of\_the\_United\_States.html#s69](http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569008_3 ____ 69/Constitution_of_the_United_States.html#s69)):: > [@](#): > > Article II > > Section 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows > > Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector. > > _Comment: The president ensures that the nation’s laws are carried out and enforced. The president serves a four-year term, and is formally elected by electors of the Electoral College. Originally the state legislatures chose the electors, but since the 1820s they have been chosen through direct elections._ > > The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be no more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by Ballot one of them for President: and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner choose the President. But in choosing the President, the Votes shall be taken by the states, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall choose from them by Ballot the Vice President. > > _Comment: Congress formally counts the presidential election ballots from the electoral college. If no presidential candidate receives a majority of votes in the electoral college, the House chooses the president. Originally the second place winner in the electoral college became the vice president, with ties decided in the Senate. This section was amended by the 12th Amendment, which specified that the vice president be chosen on a separate ballot._ > > The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States. So the task of choosing electors clearly is left up to the states, specifically the state legislatures. Electors are now directly elected by the state’s voters on a winner-take-all basis, but that is a product of state-level legislation, not a federal constitutional requirement, and the state legislatures could take back the power at any time. In 2000 the Republican-controlled Florida legislature threatened to cut the knot of the popular-vote deadlock by simply appointing a Republican slate of electors – the Supreme Court’s intervention rendered that unnecessary, but, if they had done it, it would not have been unconstitutional. And there is nothing in the Constitution which could be read as authorizing federal legislation to the effect that an elector must vote a certain way. Even state legislation to that effect might be unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/8 "2004-09-13T18:12:38Z")
It’s another good reason to get rid of the electoral college. See [here](http://www.electionmethods.org/college.htm) for a more detailed analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/9 "2004-09-13T18:14:51Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > They should pass a national law requiring the states to have a non-arbitrary and formulaic way of determining how its electoral votes will be cast, and binding the electors to voting in that fashion. Bah! There are already enough laws and regulations — millions of them in fact. The whole Byzantine web of contradictory and overlapping dicta constitutes a morass of quicksand justice in which the wealthy can buy a pole to grab onto while the poor must flail until they suffocate. I think this is wonderful news! Hurray for this elector, who is unwilling to allow a majority mob to break the knees of our beloved liberty! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/10 "2004-09-13T18:35:34Z")
One, it is my opinion that any argument that serves to suggest representative democracy is reasonable will have a pretty impossible time suggesting that EC votes are unreasonable on their face, except by assertion. Two, how the state’s EC votes are cast are a state matter, as has been mentioned. This possibility has been around since the EC’s inception, just like a politician can run on one platform but vote on another. There is very little accountability in democracy. We could legislate it, but then we might as well legislate electors away. If we’re going to do that, we might as well do away with EC votes. But if EC voting is intrinsically so lopsided, so is our method of representation in Congress, so we might as well do something about that (not that certain parties at the dope haven’t suggested that). ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/11 "2004-09-13T18:45:11Z")
If I’m reading the electoral vote page linked in **BrainGluttons** post correctly, then if all the state go the way they are currently leaning, and all the undecideds (Florida, Maine and Nevada) go to Bush, a 269-269 tie would result, giving the election to Bush via the house of reps _unless_ the West Virginia elector still has the balls to abstain/vote third party (which I realize is still pretty unlikely) in which case Kerry wins 269-268. Their was an uproar in 2000 when the election was basically decided by nine people, in 2004 it might be decided by the choice of one person. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/12 "2004-09-13T19:49:36Z")
And God bless him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/13 "2004-09-13T20:08:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hurray for this elector, who is unwilling to allow a majority mob to break the knees of our beloved liberty! 🙂 Look, would you care to expand that statement into something along the lines of a general principle? If a “majority mob” should not choose our president, then who should? ---
**Author:** ![Hambil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hambil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hambil)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/14 "2004-09-13T20:14:48Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > it might be decided by the choice of one person. If it goes to the house Bush will get re-elected. > [@](#): > > The Constitution has a process to deal with a tie in the Electoral College, which has happened once, in 1800: > > • Newly elected House of Representatives would meet on Jan. 6, 2005, to choose a president from among the three top finishers. Each state delegation gets one vote. > > • Newly elected Senate would choose vice president. Each senator gets one vote. However, it is more than possible that we could see a Bush/Edwards administration. Can Bush then replace Edwards? What power does the president have over the vice president? Fascinating questions. And, far too probable (though still unlikely) for my tastes. We’d have riots in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/15 "2004-09-13T20:18:15Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > It’s another good reason to get rid of the electoral college. See [here](http://www.electionmethods.org/college.htm) for a more detailed analysis. Since the fact that some states allow electors to do this is in no way inherent in the EC, it makes no sense to say this is a reason to scrap that system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/16 "2004-09-13T20:50:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Since the fact that some states allow electors to do this is in no way inherent in the EC, it makes no sense to say this is a reason to scrap that system. But it is inherent in the EC, **John.** Review the relevant clause of the Constution, posted above. It says, “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors.” It also says, “The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves.” In other words, the legislatures **choose** the electors, or direct the means of choosing them, but the electors **vote.** And it wouldn’t be voting at all if they weren’t free to vote however they wished. I think any state law saying the state’s electors would have vote a certain way would be ruled unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/17 "2004-09-13T21:14:17Z")
> [@Hambil](#): > > However, it is more than possible that we could see a Bush/Edwards administration. Can Bush then replace Edwards? What power does the president have over the vice president? Fascinating questions. And, far too probable (though still unlikely) for my tastes. We’d have riots in the streets. Both the president and vice-president are constitutional positions. I seriously doubt that Bush would have a constitutional leg to stand on if the Senate chose Edwards over Cheney. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/18 "2004-09-13T21:51:17Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > If I’m reading the electoral vote page linked in **BrainGluttons** post correctly, then if all the state go the way they are currently leaning, and all the undecideds (Florida, Maine and Nevada) go to Bush, a 269-269 tie would result, giving the election to Bush via the house of reps _unless_ the West Virginia elector still has the balls to abstain/vote third party (which I realize is still pretty unlikely) in which case Kerry wins 269-268. The way I see it, Kerry only wins in your situation if the elector abstains, thereby having a majority of the votes, 269-268. If the elector votes third party, 269-268-1 is not a majority and it goes to the House. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/19 "2004-09-13T22:04:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, would you care to expand that statement into something along the lines of a general principle? If a “majority mob” should not choose our president, then who should? Why not let each man give or withhold his consent as he pleases, and select for himself that government which he believes is most likely to secure his safety and happiness? The general principle is the Principle of Noncoercion. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271/20 "2004-09-13T22:19:55Z")
[hijack]I thought Bush should have, in 2000, requested that Florida’s electors, who he was awarded, _not_ cast their votes for him, but abstain or vote for a third candidate. The election would have gone to the house, he would have been made president, and a huge ugly mess that left millions of people feeling disenfranchised would have been avoided. I, for one, would have felt much less screwed by how my president came to power.[/hijack] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-elector-in-west-virginia-says-he-might-not-vote-for-bush/264271.md?page=2)