Republican Party heading into the wilderness to re-focus- What needs to happen?

Thanks for the compliment, and I do take your point about being too wordy sometimes. :smiley:

I’ve been lurking unregistered for a little while here but I decided to join properly because the posting quality is high. Hope to participate in many a SD debate to come! :wink:

As for the Reagan Cold War thesis issue above - I wouldn’t call it American propaganda exactly, but it is not entirely well subscribed outside conservative circles. Reagan played a role certainly - but how much is subject to debate.

The two main establishment historians I’ve read who represent the two schools of thought are John Lewis Gaddis and Raymond Garthoff of Brookings. Of the two, I must say I found Garthoff to have a more sophisticated view about the real dynamics of Soviet internal politics which actually enabled a peaceful reform to take place, but I do not entirely discount Gaddis’ view of the role played by Reagan’s military posture, and certainly Reagan must get credit for engaging when he did.

Anyone care to recommend further reading on the subject?

I find it amazing that this is the first and only post to mention such important issues. It seems no one really cares much that the constitution is being trampled over or that people are being tortured.

Torture, rendition, etc., is covered by all sorts of other ambit claims about good international citizenship, having sane foreign policy, evidence-based policy and respect for the rule of law.

Or do you think the almost universally voiced prescription to elect moderate Republicans means to elect fiscal moderates who are pro-torture?

One step at a time, sailor. Getting rid of the RR and Neocons would automatically resolve some of the issues **Nobody **mentioned.

I don’t doubt it but theose issues were not mentioned and others were. That gives me a sense of what people’s priorities are.

I do not think non-citizens have constitutional rights, but I am opposed to torture by the U.S. government, and it is a fairly high priority for me.

I oppose GWB (and the cowardly Congress) for using congressional authorizations of force, and tortured reliance on the edicts of a bogus organization that can’t supersede U.S. sovereignty, in order to justify going to war, instead of having the damn Congress vote a Declaration of War, as the Constitution requires.

I don’t know what other constitutional tramplings people had in mind. Let me know and it’s possible I’ll oppose those too.

(Oh, I oppose McCain whose stupid “campaign finance reform” bill was one of the biggest violations of the right to political speech imaginable).

Well, let’s put it this way. I imagine that the torture centers are going to be shut down in short order by President Obama, and torture isn’t an issue anymore.

I know that there are plenty of Republicans today who are pro-torture, but I can’t believe many of them are going to be running on a pro-torture platform after 4-8 years of a non-torturing Obama presidency.

Or to put it another way, “torture is bad” is such an obvious step it shouldn’t even have to be mentioned. But you’re right that it isn’t obvious to some people, so it really does have to be mentioned. That’s the kind of shape the xenophobe wing of the Republican party is in. Who would Jesus torture?

But that’s just relying on revealed preferences to colour in the lines as you see fit. I don’t see how you can make any such inference, sorry.

The thread isn’t about ranking the sins of the Bush Administration in order of policy malfeasance, it’s about the generally deteriorated nature of the Republicans electoral position. As such, the thread invited people to talk in broad terms about how the Republicans can rescue this situation - not to provide a list which exhaustively specifies each and every breech of public trust and sound policy. By and large, posters did that by addresses a broad theme of moderation - which rejects the hawks who made such policies possible.

Anyway, the fact that not every post bothers to reference “the abyss” each time is probably more of a sign of the outrage fatigue some feel because of the sheer magnitude of the failure of the current Administration, as well as a kind of baseline contempt which operates unstated, with no need for express iteration.

At the end of the day, most people here probably realise that Obama will shut down gitmo, cease rendition, modify the CIA loophole for torture, and instruct the OLC in an overal moderate advocacy fashion against the Schmittian legal fetishes of the war on terror driven by people like Addington and Yoo.

The Republicans need a severe ass kicking. I’m happy because the Democrats will over reach as always and probably get punished in congress. First prediction: Cut defense. Second: Find ways to define 250.000 as 50.000 so we get taxed also.

Yes it will happen. Democrats simply can’t help it.

I’m a moderate with liberal leaning but I’d consider voting for them in the future if they became the party of fiscal restraint they have always pretended to be.

Start a thread on it and maybe you will get the response you want. This thread is not about those subjects, thus far, and it isn’t fair to say that people who are talking about something else don’t agree with you on those subjects. I happen to agree that torture and destruction of the constitution are major issues, but they are not what is going to cause the Republicans to die and probably have a rebirth: economic policies and prolonged war are those causes.

On edit: It has really pissed me off that the Democrats have gone along on these issues, and that will be reflected in my future political activities. In my view, on torture and butt wiping with the constitution the Democrats are full co-conspirators.

Honestly I assume that getting rid of the Neos and Theos would take care of 3 & 4. I think most of do care very much about 3 & 4. It is why I hate Bush/Cheney so much. They have betrayed everything that I thought America stood for. They drove me from the party at long last.

No, those are concerns from opponents of the current Republican course. If its easier for you to discard that opinion as ‘liberal’, fine, but you are wrong.

I don’t discard liberal opinions, I hold them near and dear. I’m a liberal. I just don’t think that my opinions of what I’d like to see the Republicans do are going to be shared by Republicans, who do actually discard opinions like these because they do not value them because they do not match their values.

I guess it depends on how you read the American political environment.

If you take what I think is a bleak view of conservative voters, then maybe centrist Republican candidates would be so unrecognisably RINO that the base would revolt and the whole thing would be a non-starter. If that’s the case, then it would amount to wishful thinking at least in part.

But I don’t think that the GOP actually needs to be exactly the way it is now to survive and thrive. Following a loss to Obama they will be in consolidation mode for a while regardless, and if it is a popular Democratic incumbency as I suspect, it will have a natural moderating effect to help the transition.

Just to be clear, I’m not demanding Republicans simply become liberal doves; I really think they can provide an independently compelling and competitive narrative to the Democratic Party, without retreating to the excess of the Bush years, that is distinctly conservative. What I think is called for is moderate conservatism of the kind of David Cameron in the UK or the Liberal Party in Australia.

Maybe that is beyond the pale, but if you look back at Bush’s success in 2000, and he was elected as a compassionate conservative, governing through bipartisan consensus, fiscal responsibility, and reluctance to engage in national building or foreign entanglements. Obviously 9/11 changed things with both the party AND the base, but I don’t think the heart and soul of the party need be seen as a priori militarist and totalitarian-lite.

Also, I’m not suggesting any kind of abandonment of core conservative philosophy. For instance, I think Burkean conservative insights about tradition, conservation and incrementalism should rightly inform the core of conservative philosophy, along with a robust narrative about the interrelationship between market freedom and individual liberty. I also see a place for conservative, communitarian, and religious based critiques of the paucity of the liberal rights-based schema. Further, I think they can continue to highlight their interpretation of the protestant work ethic and the virtue of business, and still maintain many hot-button positions, such as with jurisprudential debates, eg. originalism and strict constructionism, etc.

What I specifically want, though, is a change in the tone of dialogue, away from this thoughtless anti-intellectualism that we frequently see on display. I think it’s one thing to suspect university culture as a breeding ground for anti-establishment views, and to exploit that for political gain, but it’s another thing to gradually erode the basis of the scientific method, empiricism, expertise and evidence driven policy. Let’s call this slide what it really is - a completely gratuitous attack.

This is all tied up with what I meant by providing an “overlay” for the base to engage with the political process. What I mean by that is to offer a more constructive pitch to their base, which is based around contesting about facts and narratives rather than merely asserting a deaf triumphalism and demonising liberals as the traitorous “other”.

In practice, I guess that would mean less of the histrionics of Pat Robertson at the Justice Sunday league, and more critiques made in the Federalist Society.

Conservatives IMO also have to recapture their think tanks and put them back into service of a thoughtful policy agenda. It’s not enough to simply have a echo chamber repeating mantras if nobody is listening and the sincerity of your position has been assailed. I mean, even just comparing the kind of intellectual resources someone like National Review founder William Buckley Jr to those found there today and you can see a marked decline. Buckley wrote highly inflammatory pieces which were completely partisan, but there a rational discourse there at the heart of his conservatism, which you don’t see today.

As for foreign policy explicitly, I should probably qualify what I said. I don’t actually think hawks should leave the party, I just think certain kinds of hawks should be alienated from the levers of power within the GOP establishment. That means that hawkish candidates are entirely compatible, but the very strongest currents of American exceptionalism should be tempered within the party.

Ultimately this all boils down to how any particular administration views the resort to force, diplomacy and how they will balances the views of the State Department with those of the Pentagon. In this arena, the Bush Administration has been a specalure failure, for even where they had good people in play like Rice, Nicholas Burns, Dick Armitage and Colin Powell - they were sidelined completely and undermined by the Cheney, Addington, Bolton and the neo-conservatives.

Burkeanism is all well and good for the preservation on what has come before, but I think that Burke was very much a product of the enlightenment and encompassed all the changes that came before him and would have continued to support gradual changes. But that is not the modern American Republican Party. It is the modern American Democratic Party with the proviso that the Democrats are willing to entertain make sweeping changes and might do so, but probably won’t.

The Reagan Revolution was not fiscally conservative, it was radical in that it redistributed wealth from poor to rich, particularly in the form of taxation and payment of future deficits. This was a sea change in the way of thinking in American politics, a Gordon Gekko, “Greed is Good” mentality.

As I see it, nothing more embodies the radical nature of modern Republican politics than the Federalist Society. There are more than three centuries of American legal tradition of the common law, yet the Federalist Society members seem to me (and maybe I am not sufficiently familiar with them) to refute that rights exist unless specifically delineated and it seems to me they want to move our legal system far more quickly to a civil law style system where everything is put in statutes and judges, like juries before them, turn into mere fact finders and do not decide what the law is. Our legal and political history is rich with dissent and the Federalist Society seems to me to suggest that it was all cut and dried. My favorite counter example is that in the debate over ratifying the Constitution, the Anti-Federalists technically lost because the Constitution was ratified, but not before converting enough of the Federalist forces, especially Madison, to the view that a Bill of Rights was necessary, essentially winning the argument.

I agree with this comment. Let the Grand Old Party follow the Whigs down to Mass Movement Sheol.

A new alignment might have Greens (an awkward mix of socialists & Malthusians united by fear for the planet’s future) opposed to Democrats (the new conservative party in all but name). Or simply regional parties. But it may be a long while before we see the trend away from a 50-50 national split reverse.

I also agree with this. If the Religious Right can totally take over, & Rick Warren & his ilk can help them find their social conscience–well, we’ll see more of the people voting based on sect, which is damn scary; but at least they might make rational decisions once in office (sometimes).

Um. Actually, the Laffer curve has been [del]reduced to[/del] replaced by the ranting of yahoos, now that they’re trying to cut taxes on capital gains altogether (not Laffer) & income taxes below 45% (also not Laffer). I don’t think the politicians ever understood the economics or cared.

I was reading Confessions of a Political Hitman by Stephen Marks, & he had a quote: “Washington is not a meritocracy.” This is probably true of Dems as well, but Marks worked for Republicans.

You’re right. That’s what needs to happen.