Republican Party heading into the wilderness to re-focus- What needs to happen?

Maybe I can clarify - maybe not. Republicans don’t care in the same sense that Democrats don’t care that Obama is “palling around with terrorists”, or that Clinton lied under oath, or that Jimmy Carter started warrantless wire tapping. All that is necessary is that you phrase something in the most pejorative manner possible, and assume guilt, and disregard any kind of qualification or quibble or justification, and simply accept the spin (from either side. But when it happens for the other side, then this doesn’t happen.

This is true, as I said, of both sides. But if it is true that Bush is guilty of torturing citizens in the same sense that Obama pals around with terrorists, then Democrats, in that sense, don’t care.

But it might be illustrative if you imagine that there is exactly the same kind of evidence linking Obama to torture as there was, for instance, evidence linking Abu Gharib to Bush and Cheney. Is it your immediate reaction to start impeachment proceedings? If not, be a bit introspective and examine what assumptions and thought processes you engage for Obama that you don’t for Bush or Cheney (or McCain).

If you find you can’t do that, well, then you probably won’t be able to understand.

Regards,
Shodan

One of these things is not like the others.

I guess not, then.

Regards,
Shodan

Um, if you think that then you’re clearly not very well read on the issues involved.

There is extensive documentation of how John Yoo was picked as a relative junior at the OLC to collaborate with Bybee and David Addington (Cheney’s counsel) in the authorship of legal advice which prescribed the legally of torture. This memo was only possible because it was deliberately shielded from the normal senior vetting process conducted by OLC and Justice for such matters - so it would not be immediately repudiated for its blatantly untenable arguments. These arguments, inter alia, provided a grotesquely narrow and enabling definition of torture, and pre-emptively tried to excuse any breech under the inherent authority of the CiC.

Only the most clueless person is insisting that the grunts on the ground at Abu Gharib, like Sabrina Harman, were someone acting on their own, or that the lack of normal military rules governing interrogation did not interact with the torture permissive stance emanating from the top of the Bush Administration. The tarnishing of the previously unblemished record of the US military, in terms of institutionalised torture, was a direct result of the top-down pressure from Rumsfeld, whose own advice template for prescribed interrogation drew directly on the then secret Yoo-Bybee memo. These same policy views informed the whole administration’s approach to Rendition and Guantanamo Bay.

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/03/hbc-90002745

Axe the biblethumpers, move away from abortion, focus on the 2nd amendment as their pet social issue, deal with illegal immigration and go back to being about fiscal responsibility.

I did re-register as Republican this year, even though I’m voting for Obama. I simply don’t agree with the Democrats’ ideology even though I’m drawn to their candidate.

But seriously, get rid of the evangelical whackjobs, steal the moderates and monied immigrants away from the Dems and push the dems further left. You don’t even have to move “left”, it’s just a matter of dropping the stupid religious social issues like prayer in schools, evolution, hating gays and being ambiguous on abortion.

Social Issues:
KEEP the Fundies by going back to States Rights. Tell them that they need to be active in their own backyard, and that the Federal path won’t work. Stop promising them action in DC, and instead promise them a reduction in Federal activity instead.

Message: “We will keep the IRS our of your Church, and we will get the Federal Government out of the rest of your business. Act Locally.”

Military:
The Republicans lost their way when the Cold War ended. They had spent too many years being the anti-communist party and they did not know what to do once the Soviets fell. Go for a strong, smaller, top technology military. At the same time, cut our foreign bases and get out of the game of being the world’s cop. Pander to the America Firsters by stating that the US military will only be used for the protection of the US. Then actually DO that. Require that any military action be military only, and not nation building or peacekeeping. Admit that we over-extended with Afghanistan an Iraq.

Message: “America’s military is for America. Let the EU keep Europe safe and secure. Let the UN nation build. Let the US be the best trained and equipped hammer - but a hammer only.”

Taxation:
Simplify and flatten. Everyone should know exactly what their tax burden is, and what the impact on their personal life any given bit of tax and spend will have. If America wants X, then EVERYONE’s tax rate goes up by Y. We all pull together.

Message: “Taxes are a shared burden, and should not be full of thousands of exceptions to the rules. We should all know what our part is, and we should all agree when we need to spend more or less.”

The Deficit:
No more except in times of emergency such as War or Recession.

Supreme Court:
Reminder that the Consititution is a list of powers of the Feds, and that everything else is supposed to be the States and the People. Privacy did not have to be listed, because ALL rights are the rights of the people if the Feds don’t get a specific power around it.

Message: “No more Kelo, no more gun grabs, etc.”

Primary Message: “We are the party of equal burden and equal opportunity, not equal outcome. America gives everyone the opportunity to excel - but not everyone takes it.”

:confused: I don’t understand your argument here. Did you mean to say that Republicans don’t care if the Bush administration is torturing terror suspects (citizens or not), as long as it’s happening only “in the same sense that Obama pals around with terrorists”?

That would make more sense from your perspective, as far as I can figure it out.

If that was what you meant, then are you in fact asserting that the statements “the Bush administration uses torture on terror suspects” and “Obama pals around with terrorists” are equally true?

Ok. Republicans who believe that Palin is fully qualified to be President should leave their car in the garage: don’t bother with a reassessment. Just keep reading William Kristol’s column in the New York Times.

My comments are directed to the remainder of the Republican Party.
There are a few issues here.

By necessity American political parties consist of broad coalitions, so setting the religious fundamentalists adrift makes no sense.

Rather, the Republican party needs to rebuild its minority of moderates and adults. These two groupings have considerable overlap, though they are not the same. We should expect silly electoral claims. But at the end of the day the adults need to be in charge.

But I don’t see that as central. Far more serious is the intellectual failure of modern conservatism, or rather the failure of conservative intellectuals. They do a poor job of mapping conservative temperament to ideology.
No. Actually they do a great job of that. Where they fall apart is at the point that ideology meets prudence and empirical reality. Conservative intellectuals need to become more serious with their observations.

Let me submit an example. I hear a lot about the alleged fiscal conservative. They claim to like low budget deficits and low taxes.

Mathematically, that implies low spending. But how often does one see a plan that can bring that about? Sure, the extremists talk of the end of social security and medicare which is honorable in its own way. But it would also be electoral suicide: these programs are popular and centrists believe they perform rather adequately.

Here’s an alternative. A moderate conservative might advocate 12 criteria by which to judge a new government program. A moderate conservative might develop a plan to phase out existing government programs with built in safety values to reverse course if necessary. The latter just might provide some political credibility. Regardless, there needs to be a conservative constituency that acknowledges that sometimes taxes have to go up if budget deficits are to be reduced.

And they need to have a passing familiarity with the Federal budget. It’s not mostly about aid to the poor. Rather the federal government is a large pension plan that happens to have an army. All other programs taken together are… not large. Which is not to say that they don’t deserve a hard look.

My proposal is messy. Reality often is. But ducking the issues is unworthy of a serious analyst, conservative or otherwise. Just saying that you like lower taxes under all circumstances is embarrassing, unless you are a professional panderer.

If a new think tank is announced over the next 2 or 3 years, or if Hoover or Rand receive a substantial infusion of cash, that might be a good sign. Even better would be if AEA adjusts course and Hoover suffers some defections.


To sum up, yes Republicans need to take a walk in the woods but more importantly, conservative intellectuals and commentators need to think about making a serious and tough-minded set of arguments. Pandering should be reserved for our elected officials.

May I have permission to quote this?

I think there are three, the nomination of Gov. Palin.

But you hit several nails squarely in post #88 and I appreciate your viewpoint.

That depends on the fundie’s willingness to accept something less than subservience of the Party to themselves, and whether or not the Party will continue to be electable with them so powerful within it. In other words, will the fundies be willing to cooperate in a “broad based coalition”, or will they insist on the Republicans being the Christian Fundie Party, and stay home and not vote if the Party won’t cooperate ?

They do seem to finally be noticing that they really aren’t getting much of what they want from the Republicans.

I agree with you about the need for a renewal of intellectual conservatism, and I’ve written about what I think needs to happen philosophically for that to occur earlier in the thread. But I think there’s a big problem for conservatism in trying to implement this renewal.

The problem is that you can’t unscramble the egg of conservative political discourse so easily. If Republicans tomorrow tried to return to a more grounded political discourse about social and economic problems, which demanded the kind of complex multi-variant reasoning that progressive elites are immersed in, it would simply alienate a substantial part of their base, and they would come off as the poor-man’s Centrist in terms of argument and political party identification.

American Conservatism has always operated in a bifurcated fashion, with a more crude sloganeering form of discourse for the base, and a more oblique running intellectual historicism for the elite, which tried to create a solid foundational justificatory framework for the movement. But what happened, over time, is that the base of the party became more and more twisted back on itself in fits of triumphalist uncertainty avoidance, and little by little, the sincere intellectual elite framework that existed previously became tainted. So what started as a project grounded in valid critiques of vast government projects, and the great society, no longer felt it had to seriously link its critique of liberalism with reality, as it had simply internalised and embedded that into its political identity. One only has to look at how even right now, the McCain campaign is still trying to fight the battle of the 1960s culture war to see this is a losing strategy over the long run. It’s quite amazing they have been able to get away with it for this long, I think.

True, but the aphrodisiac of power and control they currently wield pretty much guarantees they’ll stay tied to the Republican party’s hip and continue to try to manipulate from within. The parasite has found its perfect host. They’re not leaving unless rejected, and I’m not sure there are enough in the upper echelons of the party who are not part of the cabal to be able to wrest it back from from the brink of becoming the evangelical theocracy party.

Welcome to the SDMB, friend. I’ve been appreciating your well-thought-out and clearly informed posting since I noticed you recently. Hope you stick around for a while.

Thanks mate and cheers. I will stick around; I’ve been enjoying the quality of the discussions here.

Hopefully the regular crowd isn’t finding my overbearing personality too, um, overbearing. I tend to just go for it with my posting style.

I did lurk for a while, but I’m probably still missing a few SD conventions, and learning the various personalities, etc. So feel free everyone to lay the smack-down on the impertinent noob if I’ve crossed a line.

You need to act a lot cooler if you’re going to stick around. We have a reputation to maintain.

And wear a hat.

<dons cool hat> :cool:

Sure, but the memorable part was first uttered by Paul Krugman. http://www.pkarchive.org/column/71101.html

IClaudius: Indeed. But those with conservative temperament will need some ideology to glom onto. I suspect that the small government story can be improved upon, but that would require some creativity. Post election (much), I hope to present my own woolly proposal.

Saw an article today that sums up some of the problems with the libertarian economic ideals of the party: http://www.slate.com/id/2202489/