# Republican Platform: "Kill The Gays" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277 "2015-11-11T11:36:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/81 "2015-11-13T03:31:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Find me a mainstream Christian church that preaches “Death to the gays!”. How few members is still mainstream? Or is it by revenue? Number of buildings? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/82 "2015-11-13T03:38:11Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > So, he’s arranging the order of the rock throwers. Big deal. [Many scholars consider that verse spurious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#Authorship), but whatever, he doesn’t say he’s repealing the Law. On the contrary, he makes the Law stricter. He says even mentally boinking a woman is adultery. > > So this woman must have been a special case. Maybe he used his omniscience to know that she had been falsely accused, or that there were extraordinary circumstances. Maybe it’s OK for the Son of God to bend the rules, but not you. Or maybe the Bible just contradicts itself. > > Not Jesus, and [probably not even Paul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Hebrews#Authorship). But it does reflect the assertions of both Paul and Jesus that the end times would occur very shortly, within the lifetimes of their audience. Clearly, they were wrong. > > Said in response to ultra-strict Jews who thought that plucking grain to eat on the Sabbath was a sin. He doesn’t say not to honor the Sabbath, he just says they go too far if they don’t even let you eat. > > He’s just repeating Lev 19:18 – “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” You know, the chapter right before the one that says to execute anyone having gay sex. > > Here’s a passage you didn’t quote, from the Sermon on the Mount: > > Heaven and earth haven’t passed away. All things have not been fulfilled. In particular, the stars haven’t fallen from the sky, the dead haven’t risen into the air, and Jesus hasn’t returned in glory. No, they don’t. Read your own cite. “Arguments against Johannine authorship[edit] Bishop J.B. Lightfoot wrote that absence of the passage from the earliest manuscripts, combined with the occurrence of stylistic characteristics atypical of John, together implied that the passage was an interpolation.\* Nevertheless, he considered the story to be authentic history._[18] As a result, based on Eusebius’ mention that the writings of Papias contained a story “about a woman falsely accused before the Lord of many sins” (H.E. 3.39), he argued that this section originally was part of Papias’ Interpretations of the Sayings of the Lord, and included it in his collection of Papias’ fragments. Bart D. Ehrman concurs in Misquoting Jesus, adding that the passage contains many words and phrases otherwise alien to John’s writing.[19] However, Michael W. Holmes has pointed out that it is not certain "that Papias knew the story in precisely this form, inasmuch as it now appears that at least two independent stories about Jesus and a sinful woman circulated among Christians in the first two centuries of the church, so that t_he traditional form found in many New Testament manuscripts may well represent a conflation of two independent shorter, earlier versions of the incident.”\*[20] Kyle R. Hughes has argued that one of these earlier versions is in fact very similar in style, form, and content to the Lukan special material (the so-called “L” source), _suggesting that the core of this tradition is in fact rooted in very early Christian (though not Johannine) memory_.[21] Arguments for Johannine authorship[edit] T_here is clear reference of the pericope adulterae from the primitive Christian church in the Syriac Didascalia Apostolorum. (II,24,6; ed. Funk I, 93.) Zane C. Hodges and Arthur L. Farstad argue for Johannine authorship of the pericope.[22] They suggest there are points of similarity between the pericope’s style and the style of the rest of the gospel. They claim that the details of the encounter fit very well into the context of the surrounding verses. They argue that the pericope’s appearance in the majority of manuscripts, if not in the oldest ones, is evidence of its authenticity."_ You also forget the rest of John: "\*When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11 She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’ \* And, yes there is Matt 5:18 which is interpreted in the light of The New Covenant. [Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.](http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm) _“5:17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God’s holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ’s justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian’s rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ’s disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ’s righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man’s temper and conduct.”_ There is nothing in the Word of Jesus that says he was ever in favor of anything but forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/83 "2015-11-13T03:39:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How few members is still mainstream? Or is it by revenue? Number of buildings? Do you have one? Can you find any? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/84 "2015-11-13T03:42:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you have one? Can you find any? Not until I know what you’ll reject out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/85 "2015-11-13T03:47:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Find me a mainstream Christian church that preaches “Death to the gays!”. You suggested that among a couple hundred million self-identified Christians (if we limit to the US?), the number of those that would like to kill gays “is so tiny they might not even fill a church.” This, despite the fact that people like Swanson (he is not alone) find audiences for just this message. Please. Your claim is the extraordinary one here. That’s why I ask _you_ for evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/86 "2015-11-13T03:51:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is nothing in the Word of Jesus that says he was ever in favor of anything but forgiveness. What about Mark 16:16: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” And Matthew 12:31: “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.” Lack of faith in Him is the one thing He won’t forgive. On that point, Jesus is no different from Jim Jones. Jesus, indeed, committed the most horrible spiritual crime in human history: He made a **virtue** of **faith.** And faith, sir, is a vice, not a virtue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/87 "2015-11-13T03:51:39Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They showed up at _his_ rally. > And executing gays isn’t the only insane idea he has. > > Where do you think I should go for accurate figures? You dont accept anything else he says, why do you accept his claims for attendance at this rally? Note that the Group his branch was affiliated with- the National Center for Family Integrated Churches - has removed his congregation from its list. Swanson is no longer affiliated with any church other than his own congregation. His congregation is a tiny church in CO, with only one employee and a tiny yearly budget. He is the pastor of his own church, a one man show. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/88 "2015-11-13T03:53:43Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > You suggested that among a couple hundred million self-identified Christians (if we limit to the US?), the number of those that would like to kill gays “is so tiny they might not even fill a church.” This, despite the fact that people like Swanson (he is not alone) find audiences for just this message. > > Please. Your claim is the extraordinary one here. That’s why I ask _you_ for evidence. Anyone can find listeners. Find me a mainstream church that backs him. There are none. I can’t prove a negative. You need to show a main stream church that backs that preaching. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/89 "2015-11-13T03:59:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You dont accept anything else he says, why do you accept his claims for attendance at this rally? > > Note that the Group his branch was affiliated with- the National Center for Family Integrated Churches - has removed his congregation from its list. Swanson is no longer affiliated with any church other than his own congregation. His congregation is a tiny church in CO, with only one employee and a tiny yearly budget. He is the pastor of his own church, a one man show. Then . . . why are presidential candidates showing up at his rally?! They never showed up for Fred Phelps! (AFAIK.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/90 "2015-11-13T04:11:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Anyone can find listeners. Find me a mainstream church that backs him. There are none. > > I can’t prove a negative. You need to show a main stream church that backs that preaching. Why should I give a fuck whether you consider them “mainstream” or not? What matters is that they exist–Christians, in this country, openly advocating the murder of homosexuals. They find apparently approving audiences (more than “a church”), and draw appearances from ostensibly serious political figures, from an ostensibly mainstream political party. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/91 "2015-11-13T04:12:52Z")
The Southern Baptist Convention had no problem allowing American Vision [a place to voice their views.](https://www.au.org/church-state/february-2010-church-state/people-events/religious-right-activist-calls-for-execution) > [@](#): > > Despite its extreme views, AV has made inroads in the Religious Right. AV has held its “worldview super conference” at Ridgecrest, a facility affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention (the nation’s largest Protestant denomination). And the AV conferences have been cosponsored by the likes of the Alliance Defense Fund, the Home School Legal Defense Fund, Liberty University School of Law and World magazine. The Rev. Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition has urged his flock to attend as well. The group is planning another “super conference” this year. [Article on Christian Reconstructionism/Dominionism](http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre1.html) and it’s inroads in numerous Christian denominations. Notice how they favor a theocratic U.S. Quite similar to statements made by Cruz and Huckabee. [RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dominionism) on same. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/92 "2015-11-13T04:19:33Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Why should I give a fuck whether you consider them “mainstream” or not? What matters is that they exist–Christians, in this country, openly advocating the murder of homosexuals. They find apparently approving audiences (more than “a church”), and draw appearances from ostensibly serious political figures, from an ostensibly mainstream political party. Sure, and there are nutcases openly demanding pants on horses and that the Earth is Flat. There are over 300 Million Americans, and since they stopped committing any but those that ‘are a danger’- a fair number are insane. There are crazy Christians, crazy Muslims, crazy Jews, and crazy atheists. So? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/93 "2015-11-13T04:25:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Anyone can find listeners. Find me a mainstream church that backs him. There are none. > > I can’t prove a negative. You need to show a main stream church that backs that preaching. Why thank you for making the point for many over here, the candidates then should know better. Indeed there are many crazies out there, but I don’t worry much unless they are appearing as king makers and it is because candidates are kowtowing to them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/94 "2015-11-13T04:29:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then . . . why are presidential candidates showing up at his rally?! They never showed up for Fred Phelps! (AFAIK.) Not \*his \*rally. He was one of about a dozen speakers, altho he is one of the organizers. They invited every Presidential candidate, even Hilary. If you read the events webpage, it sounds fairly innocuous, altho certainly conservative. Nothing about “killing the gays” (and in fact Swansons speech did not contain any of that hate rhetoric) but there was a line about "_Is your pastor ready to go to jail for refusing to officiate a same sex marriage?"_ and “T_he Supreme Court of the United States recently legalized homosexual marriage in all 50 states in the Obergefell V. Hodges decision. Are you ready to face persecution for opposing the homosexual agenda?_” so any attendee can’t say they didnt know the conference was homophobic. [https://freedom2015.org/](https://freedom2015.org/) I am not saying there isnt a solid \*minority \*of right wingers that aren’t homophobic and that certainly includes some Christians. But it’s a minority. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/95 "2015-11-13T05:24:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Why thank you for making the point for many over here, the candidates then should know better. Indeed there are many crazies out there, but I don’t worry much unless they are appearing as king makers and it is because candidates are kowtowing to them. Point taken. That said, the attendance of Cruz, Huckabee and Jindal within a hundred miles of any shindig thrown by (or even prominently featuring) this Swanson character is more of a SRIOTD. Characterizing it as _Republican Platform: “Kill the Gays”_ is just stupid histrionics of the kind that when I see it on Facebook from a progressive I otherwise esteem makes me think: _“Clickbait. Hard pass.”_ Hyperbole has its place, but the OP overshot the sweet spot by about a mile or two. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/96 "2015-11-13T05:54:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not \*his \*rally. He was one of about a dozen speakers, altho he is one of the organizers. They invited every Presidential candidate, even Hilary. Like that’s any kind of excuse?! ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/97 "2015-11-13T06:10:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s a good point, but it vanishes in the hate-filled screed of the OP. The hate-filled screed of the _ **OP** _? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/98 "2015-11-13T06:33:53Z")
Just pretend that we can imagine a complex plot that somehow places…Bernie Sanders, say…right there at the thing, but somehow unaware until he hears the guy speak, or someone tells him what was just said. Somehow, he didn’t know until just then. How fast would he get to a microphone to say he has _nothing_ to do with these people. Denounce, renounce, condemn and get me _out_ of here, away from rabies cooties! Or not Bernie, Hillary. Or Joe Biden, Gov. O’Malley, take your pick. So, lets stretch credulity. Say, these guys didn’t know who they were going to be oozing amongst. Then what, they got there and didn’t hear the speech? Didn’t hear anyone _talking_ about the speech? Outside of those distant possibilities, what excuse can they offer for not speaking up immediately, and in no uncertain terms! And if it were for political reasons, like they could not afford to offend that deranged demographic…well, that will do for “mainstream”, won’t it? If they hold political power that must be deferred to? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/99 "2015-11-13T06:36:32Z")
Right, that’s the difference. It’s not “oh god, this is shocking, I had no idea I was at a speech by this guy, my bad, I totally denounce this shit”, it’s “oh, yeah, if I admit I support the guy, that’s a little too extreme, but I’ll let my supporters who actually do want to kill gay people and love that message think I support this” They’re choosing to exploit a toxic, horrible constituency by appealing to them but by playing it coy with sane people. It’s no accident, it’s the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277/100 "2015-11-13T14:48:03Z")
Seems this incident is gaining a bit of traction, articles about it keep popping up in my news feeds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-platform-kill-the-gays/737277.md?page=6)