# Republican roots in Calvinism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 21, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724 "2016-02-21T18:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/1 "2016-02-21T18:59:12Z")
Can we discuss the Conservative Republican/Tea Party movement’s roots in Calvinism? The current Republican notion that if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor has its roots in [Calvinism](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/20/122457/619) (follow the link for the full text). > [@](#): > > Quote from that link: > …To the Calvinists, material success and wealth was a sign that you were one of the Elect, and thus were favored by God. Who better to shepherd a society populated by God’s wayward children? The poor, the weak, the infirm? God was punishing them for their sins. > > …\… > > What Calvinism accomplished was to fulfill the psychic needs of both upwardly mobile middle class entrepreneurs and alienated workers. Middle class businessmen (and they were men) could ascribe their economic success to their spiritual superiority. These businessmen and others who were predestined to be the Elect of God could turn to alienated workers, and explain to them that their impoverished economic condition was the result of a spiritual failure ordained by God. Their place in the spiritual (and economic) system was predestined. > > …\… > > Sound familiar? The Republican “Contract with America” and other legislative “reform” measures involving social welfare are implicitly built around early Calvinist ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/2 "2016-02-21T19:39:34Z")
_There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what; who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims. These are people who pay no income tax. And so my job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives._ ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/3 "2016-02-21T20:47:35Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Can we discuss the Conservative Republican/Tea Party movement’s roots in Calvinism? > > The current Republican notion that if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor has its roots in [Calvinism](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/20/122457/619) (follow the link for the full text). Okay, let’s discuss. First of all, can you offer any evidence that there’s a “current Republican notion that if your are a poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor”? Has any current Republican leader said this? ---
**Author:** ![NeonMadman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/4 "2016-02-21T20:58:13Z")
{Deleted comment] (Decided I didn’t want to be part of this discussion after all.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/5 "2016-02-21T21:00:11Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > It also seems that you are getting your information about Calvinism from an anti-Calvinist web site. Maybe you should do a bit more research into what Calvinism really teaches. Why bother? It’s already been determined what she believes. Nothing is going to change that. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/6 "2016-02-21T21:37:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Okay, let’s discuss. First of all, can you offer any evidence that there’s a “current Republican notion that if your are a poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor”? Has any current Republican leader said this? I don’t have to offer or prove anything to raise the question. Have you been listening to public discourse for the last 10 years or so? Apparently not. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Why bother? It’s already been determined what she believes. Nothing is going to change that. Thanks for that transparent comment. I’d like to hear from someone who knows something about Calvinism. I took this OUT of Great Debates because I’m not interested in debating. Stop slamming me because you think I’ve asked a worthless, stupid question that doesn’t interest you. Geez, people. :rolleyes: If you’re not interested, don’t participate. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/7 "2016-02-21T22:29:54Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Can we discuss the Conservative Republican/Tea Party movement’s roots in Calvinism? > > The current Republican notion that if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor has its roots in [Calvinism](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/20/122457/619) (follow the link for the full text). You’re confusing Calvinism with the “health and wealth” crowd. The two are completely different theologies. Now, the last time you created a thread asking for information, you didn’t want to follow through. So I’m not going to take the trouble to post cites unless you give me some assurance that this is an honest question. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/8 "2016-02-21T23:34:17Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > You’re confusing Calvinism with the “health and wealth” crowd. The two are completely different theologies. Now \*\*THAT \*\*is a helpful and informative response. > [@](#): > > Now, the last time you created a thread asking for information, you didn’t want to follow through. So I’m not going to take the trouble to post cites unless you give me some assurance that this is an honest question. I only bailed on that conversation when the attacks on me personally displaced the content of the discussion, which happens a fair amount of the time on this board. On less controversial topics than Obamacare. I’m not an incendiary type, but when civility goes out the window, I follow. Obviously, some found it a worthwhile discussion as I note that it is going on nicely without me. It is an honest question. If you need more than that statement \<_shrug_\>. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/9 "2016-02-21T23:41:04Z")
Interesting notion, never heard of it before… Ok, read the article you linked to, and yes the last bit explicitly says what you do in your op, however it strikes me as an opinion piece, an editorial if you will, not something that is factual. This “divine right” (lets be honest, that is what the article is claiming) is not new, nor is it restricted to republican/conservative/right wing leaning folks. Divine right is a legitimacy tactic used by government. On a plebian scale, I’ve belonged to churches that I would most certainly not characterize as anything but liberal where the “wealth doctrine” was taught as a divine mandate to finance the spread of God’s Word, not as a sign of his favor. In other words, it was an implied sin to NOT be financially successful, and juuuuuust barely not a sin to give ten percent of that to the church before taxes. (this last part was regardless of financial success actually) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/10 "2016-02-22T00:01:25Z")
Protestants in general believed in hard work. > [@](#): > > Calvinism stresses self-denial, sobriety, thriftiness, efficiency, and morality, which can result in high production and low consumption, creating a surplus that cannot be consumed, which is instead invested for the greater glory of God. [http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John\_Calvin](http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_Calvin) Compare Protestant England and Holland to Catholic Spain, which squandered untold shiploads of gold and silver from the New World. Calvin’s own words: > [@](#): > > The Swiss reformer John Calvin knew that God was more important than material wealth, and Calvin’s advice can serve to steer investors and stewards in any century away from a chilling materialism. Money is—and ever will be—a creation; as such it should not be worshiped, over-emphasized, or ignored. Like the creation itself, it has a place and is useful. But outside of that designed space, it can become an idol. > Calvin was clear that Mammon was not to be served. In his commentary on Matthew 6:24, he stated the dilemma well: “[W]here riches hold the dominion of the heart, God has lost his authority. True, it is not impossible that those who are rich shall serve God; but whoever gives himself up as a slave to riches must abandon the service of God; for covetousness makes us slaves of the devil." > **[Calvin and Wealth – Part 1](https://calvin500blog.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/calvin-and-wealth-part-1/)** > > The Swiss reformer John Calvin knew that God was more important than material wealth, and Calvin’s advice can serve to steer investors and stewards in any century away from a chilling materialism. … ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/11 "2016-02-22T00:14:51Z")
**Jophiel** ’s post, though he didn’t say so, was taken verbatim from a recent Republican nominee for election as president of the United States. Mr. Romney said everything bad about the poor _except_ that they weren’t among God’s elect. Mighty close, though. In the present day, it seems more likely that the Republicans have added Calvinball to Calvinism to guide their actions. [http://bartel.org/calvinball/](http://bartel.org/calvinball/) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/12 "2016-02-22T02:14:31Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > {Deleted comment] (Decided I didn’t want to be part of this discussion after all.) Hah! Because of **running coach** ’s prompt quote and reply you can’t hide THAT easily! Sure, a couple minutes later you’d’ve been home free, but I can FORCE you back into the discussion, if you want. 😉 I believe I clarified my objections to Calvinism in my hypocrisy/church library thread, but I’ll repeat my humble opinion that unconditional election is pretty fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/13 "2016-02-22T03:49:17Z")
Thank you for these interesting replies. Yeah, Mitt came _darn_ close. I posted the link to the Calvinist site (or anti-Calvinist) just for everyone’s information, in case some people weren’t familiar with the notion that wealth is an outward sign of God’s favor (and poverty of his disfavor), which I first encountered in history of theology classes in college. I’m not making this up. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/14 "2016-02-22T04:11:03Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I don’t have to offer or prove anything to raise the question. Indeed. And once you raise the question, it’s worth asking, is there actually any “current Republican notion” at all like the one that you describe? > [@](#): > > Have you been listening to public discourse for the last 10 years or so? Apparently not. Actually, I have. I’ve listened to speeches by Republicans, read books and articles by Republicans, read part of the Republican platform. I’ve never heard any of them say “if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor”, or anything similar. Based on that, the logical conclusion is that no Republican believes what you claim they believe. Of course, if you wanted to prove yourself correct, you could quote a current Republican who says “if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor”. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/15 "2016-02-22T04:20:09Z")
There may be some one off Republican who believes this but surprise, no evidence is forthcoming! I might as well say that the current Democratic party’s belief system has roots in Santanism because they want to confiscate wealth of all Christians. No evidence though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/16 "2016-02-22T04:25:57Z")
I’d say that “if you are poor, there is nothing to be done about it” is so close as to be practically equivalent. And for what it’s worth, the single most liberal congregation in my area is Presbyterian, a Calvinist denomination. ---
**Author:** ![dizzee\_dee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@dizzee\_dee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dizzee_dee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/17 "2016-02-22T04:27:52Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > **Jophiel** ’s post, though he didn’t say so, was taken verbatim from a recent Republican nominee for election as president of the United States. Mr. Romney said everything bad about the poor _except_ that they weren’t among God’s elect. Mighty close, though. > > In the present day, it seems more likely that the Republicans have added Calvinball to Calvinism to guide their actions. [http://bartel.org/calvinball/](http://bartel.org/calvinball/) Romney is a Mormon. Certainly not a Calvinist. And given that evangelicals generally lean right and tend to be Republicans, it kinda seems OBVIOUS that you would see some similarities in thought. Though, it should be noted that not all (I’m not sure it’s even most) evangelicals are Calvinist. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/18 "2016-02-22T04:33:16Z")
I must be getting tired. Although I read the title correctly earlier today, a scan of thread titles just now looked like it said 'Republican roots in **Cannibalism**. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/19 "2016-02-22T05:04:51Z")
I’m a Calvinist. The roots, from what I gather, don’t have anything to do with idolizing wealth or looking at prosperity as a sign of God’s blessing. Most old-timey Calvinists were simple-living people who didn’t put much stock in material comforts. Most Calvinist churches are very plain and non-ornate as a result. The prosperity gospel-- the notion that people’s health and wealth come as a sign of God’s blessing-- has come from post-war Pentecostal revivalism. Mega churches. Televangelism. This is not Calvinism. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724/20 "2016-02-22T06:49:12Z")
> [@dizzee\_dee](#): > > Romney is a Mormon. Certainly not a Calvinist. > > And given that evangelicals generally lean right and tend to be Republicans, it kinda seems OBVIOUS that you would see some similarities in thought. Though, it should be noted that not all (I’m not sure it’s even most) evangelicals are Calvinist. The whole “evangelical” thing should be a clue. 🙂 What’s the point of doing outreach if everybody’s fate is pre-set? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republican-roots-in-calvinism/746724.md?page=2)